A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

Originally Posted by Libby

No. But, neither do I believe that God's "drawing" interferes with free will. It simply let's us know that God is there.

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

God drawing our attention to him, bringing His Presence to our attention has nothing to do with our ability to choose. It doesn't corrupt our will. The "drawing" makes us aware that their is a choice to be made.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

You just said that man cannot choose Christ on his own. Right? So how on earth can you say that man has free will to choose Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What has God's "drawing" to do with free will?

God drawing our attention to him, bringing His Presence to our attention has nothing to do with our ability to choose.

So "drawing" simply means that God draws our attention to him? And when you say this what exactly does this mean?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So "drawing" simply means that God draws our attention to him? And when you say this what exactly does this mean?

Well, I think it's more than that. I think he makes himself known in many ways and tugs at our hearts. His spirit is all over scripture and will often cause people to reflect on him and feel this "tugging" at their hearts, when they read his word.

But, the same thing can happen in a variety of ways. Nature, inspired writings, the testimony of another Christian, etc. That is all a part of his "drawing" us.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I think it's more than that. I think he makes himself known in many ways and tugs at our hearts. His spirit is all over scripture and will often cause people to reflect on him and feel this "tugging" at their hearts, when they read his word.

But, the same thing can happen in a variety of ways. Nature, inspired writings, the testimony of another Christian, etc. That is all a part of his "drawing" us.

And without this "tugging at our hearts" no man can or will come to Christ. Right? Man is unable to come to Christ. BTW this sounds a lot like Calvinism NOT the free will that you keep promoting on this board.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And without this "tugging at our hearts" no man can or will come to Christ. Right? Man is unable to come to Christ. BTW this sounds a lot like Calvinism NOT the free will that you keep promoting on this board.

If that's what you think, you are either not reading or not understanding my posts.

Why do you believe God's drawing us, affects our free will? You can be attracted to someone and still not choose to interact with them, right? So, why is it you are insisting that God's drawing us, necessarily, affects our free will? It doesn't, IMO. Why would it? There is no logical reason why it should. You are just used to thinking about it in your own terms.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

If that's what you think, you are either not reading or not understanding my posts.

Why do you believe God's drawing us, affects our free will? You can be attracted to someone and still not choose to interact with them, right? So, why is it you are insisting that God's drawing us, necessarily, affects our free will? It doesn't, IMO. Why would it? There is no logical reason why it should. You are just used to thinking about it in your own terms.

I have read your posts and I don't understand how you can hold the position you do especially after you told me that man is incapable of coming to Christ unless God intervenes and draws him first. Did I misstate your position? If so please help me understand what you really believe.

[alanmolstad]

so billy......did the people that jesus wept over and said they " would not" come to him actually have a way to put the blame on to god for not drawing them first?......... the answer is no.

[alanmolstad]

the reason we can not blame god for not drawing us first to him ( as the Bible says god must first draw men to himself) is that on the cross christ drew " all men".


sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so billy......did the people that jesus wept over and said they " would not" come to him actually have a way to put the blame on to god for not drawing them first?......... the answer is no.

All people are responsible for their choices.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I looked at post 379 and I don't see a direct answer to my question. My question is a very simple and straightforward that requires a simple yes or no to answer.


Can a person come to Christ on their own free will without being drawn by the Father?

read the 3 rd paragraph....lol


as walter said....we enter heaven on our own as an act of will...this is mans Free awill...

but once inside we see the sign inside the door that reads that god chose us first.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

All people are responsible for their choices.

yes!

free will means that not only can we always seek god it also means we cant blame god for not seeking him

[alanmolstad]

typing on phone sux

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
Full Definition of FREE WILL

1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

baby with the bath water again Billy Billy Billy.......

must i start all over?

[alanmolstad]

man hhas free will and god is in control

[alanmolstad]

" would not" means thy could have.

they lacked nothing....they had what they needed

[alanmolstad]

" would not" means they cant blame god fot not doing something first.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How can you go on and on about free will to choose Christ when you admit that man can't choose Christ on their own?

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....

Did you happen to see my post above?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sio god soveringhty draws men and mans free will allows him to seek god

Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
Full Definition of FREE WILL

1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I am still puzzled by your continued use of the term "free will" when you statement above clearly shows that what you are talking about can't possibly be free will by the dictionary definition since you believe that God's intervention is required for man to accept Christ. BTW don't feel alone because Libby and many other mormons are guilty of the same error.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

LOL......like i said...

Calvinist hate the words Free Will.....

Does man have the free will (or ability) to come to Christ without divine intervention?

[alanmolstad]

billy....the " would not" verse tells us that we have free will.....the JOHN 6 verse tells us that godnis in control

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does man have the free will (or ability) to come to Christ without divine intervention?

can anyone innhell blame god?

cannanyonenin hell say that the only reason they were in hell was due to a lack of calling on gods part?


NO! !!!!


we have free will and god has already called " all men" in christ

[alanmolstad]

so free will means we cant blame god for when we go to hell.

free will means we already have what is needed to believe.
nothing more is needed....nothing more is ever going to come that is needed.

free will means we are 100% to blame for not believeing god


if this was not 100% true then jesus would have told the people of the city that they " could not" believe.....