A "what if" question for critics.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Then, please tell us why (in your opinion) God chooses some and not others. Why?

For God's own good will and pleasure.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Which is what exactly?

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by disciple

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Yes, thanks for pointing that out, disciple.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

For God's own good will and pleasure.

Seems to me that you're talking about works and God working in us, if you are referring to this verse in Ephesians.

"For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by disciple

Just a thought to add to the discussion. ***uming that God has the right and power to call whom he pleases effectually to faith, how can it be consistent for God to p*** over people and leave them in their sin and condemnation when Ezekiel 18:32 says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God, so turn and live"? If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but, in fact, Jesus weeps over the unbelief of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; 19:41–42), then why does he not effectually call them all? Or, turning it around, if he weeps over their unbelief, can we really believe that he has himself made the choice ahead of time who will believe and who will not? What do you think?

Exactly, disciple. Why would Jesus have so much grief over unbelievers, if he, himself were the cause of it?

Thank you so much, for your input. Much appreciated.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, thanks for pointing that out, disciple.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I see you are not going to tell me what this verse says so let's break it down in parts.

"those whom he predestined he also called"

Who were called?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I see you are not going to tell me what this verse says so let's break it down in parts.

"those whom he predestined he also called"

Who were called?

Many are called, few are chosen. I hear you callin, but I am busy right now. Now is the time said, Jesus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by disciple

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

So would you agree that a specific group of people ("those") are predestined to be saved prior to "those" people are even born?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Seems to me that you're talking about works and God working in us, if you are referring to this verse in Ephesians.

"For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

This is an excellent topic to discuss but we have to take it step by step in order to understand each other's position. Let's start with the following.

God has given us commandments to follow and we all have a choice to obey or disobey His commandments. Agree or disagree?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So would you agree that a specific group of people ("those") are predestined to be saved prior to "those" people are even born?

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by disciple

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.

But that is not what I asked you.

Would you agree that a specific group of people ("those") are predestined to be saved prior to "those" people are even born?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by disciple

I would agree that God is Omniscient and can use that foreknowledge any way He wants.

Do you believe that God knows ALL things (every single event that you will ever do during your lifetime) OR do you believe that HE predicts what you will do based on intelligent guessing?

[Libby]

I have no issue with God knowing everything, from beginning to end. He is omniscient and knows all.

My main issue is with the "T" in Tulip, which is total depravity. The idea that man cannot, of his own volition, turn to God.

God's "drawing" has nothing to do with man's "ability" or free will. God draws all of us, and we all have the opportunity to turn to Him, at some point, even if it is not in full understanding of Him or Jesus Christ. If God didn't want us all, why would He say, he does? I know Calvinist's dance all around the verses that say "all" and claim it doesn't really mean all. I think that's wrong.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God's "drawing" has nothing to do with man's "ability" or free will.

Then you must also believe that anyone can come to Christ even before being drawn by the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God draws all of us, and we all have the opportunity to turn to Him, at some point, even if it is not in full understanding of Him or Jesus Christ.

ALL are drawn to Christ? Is that what you are saying or do you mean something else by your statement above?

[alanmolstad]

later tonight i hope to find a way to fix my laptop so i dont have to post on my phone.....hang in there Libby....LOL

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by disciple

Sorry if I'm ****ing in but verse 29 tells us that those He foreknew (knew beforehand would answer His call) those he also predestined. No one is predestined to hell but those who respond to God's call with faith and trust are predestined to salvation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Hopefully my follow up question in a prior post got you to think about your position and realize that this would necessitate that there is a fixed group of people who will be saved and a fixed group of people who will not be saved--prior to any of these people ever being born--and that there is nothing you can do to change this fact. Here is a segment from Wayne Grudem that discusses this very issue.

Wayne Grudem--Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, pp. 674-79

d. Predestination Based on Foreknowledge Still Does Not Give People Free Choice:

The idea that God's predestination of some to believe is based on foreknowledge of their faith encounters still another problems: upon reflection, this system turns out to give no real freedom to man either. For if God can look into the future and see that person A will come to faith in Christ, and that person B will not come to faith in Christ, then those facts are already fixed, they are already determined. If we ***ume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which it must be), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way that their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are these destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore it seems that the only other possible solution is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...standings.html

[alanmolstad]

when you are born nothing about you is set in stone.......you have the future ahead of you....and its always unknown...

we each receive the same daily calling of god to do right......even if we never hear of the bible and jesus...

but because we also have free will we alone are responsible for how we respond to the light we are given from heaven.

this means we cant blame our parents....our church we were raised in or even God above for refusal to come to the cross of christ

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then you must also believe that anyone can come to Christ even before being drawn by the Father.

Sounds like we might have different ideas about what being "drawn" means.

For starters, I think you believe that man is dead in sin, until God changes his heart (correct?). I believe man is sinful, sometimes terribly so, but it does not affect our "ability" to come to Christ.

Being drawn means that God is making us aware of Him (in various ways), as I mentioned in one of my other posts. We may..or may not..respond. What does it mean to you?

[alanmolstad]

drawn to me is like when they shout in the world of Islam to prayer......you cant help hearing.....but you are not forced to pray to Allah.

Its like that......a calling......


I fully believe that each day from the moment we are conceived we are hearing the callings of our God.

We are called.....we are drawn to......we are beckened .......we are encouraged.....
always...at all times.....and in many ways

[alanmolstad]

we are drawn to christ.......not only we who are believers but the whole world receives this same calling....this same drawing......

[alanmolstad]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow....a-bible-study/

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Sounds like we might have different ideas about what being "drawn" means.

For starters, I think you believe that man is dead in sin, until God changes his heart (correct?). I believe man is sinful, sometimes terribly so, but it does not affect our "ability" to come to Christ.

Being drawn means that God is making us aware of Him (in various ways), as I mentioned in one of my other posts. We may..or may not..respond. What does it mean to you?

you are right on the money tonight!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Being drawn means that God is making us aware of Him (in various ways), as I mentioned in one of my other posts. We may..or may not..respond.

Since you said that man has the ability to come to Christ prior to being drawn by God he would be able to come to Christ without being drawn.

[alanmolstad]

i would answer that there is NOTHING that any person on God's green earth has to wait for......

Nothing...you dont have to think.."I have feel God call me first"........

So the question is.........moot....Case-closed....


move on.....