A "what if" question for critics.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

What more source do you want us to use other than 1st the Lord our God through prayer and His word, and then LDS writings and scripture that contradicts it's self and displays false prophecy (BofM Jacob 2:24 vs D&C 132:33, D&C 124:51 vs 1 Nephi 3:7)? What more could I see than that the LDS don't trust their own History that they wrote and controlled since Joseph Smith lead their church nor do they believe their own scripture. They Invent their doctrine on the run..

What ever SEEMS right to them at the time is their doctrine.. Christian doctrine is spelled out in the full context of the Bible.. If you would like to call me a Pharisee I will allow that.. At least they looked to the scripture and in the case of Nicodemus who was a man of the Pharisees. He came to Jesus and receive the message of life directly from Him.. That is what I have done.. I have come to Jesus to learn from Him directly. He is consistent but mormonism, it is like the shifting sand, the waves of the sea.. It is always in transition even on who God is..

The BofM says that God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, that they are one God.. Then along comes Smith and his "translation" of the BofA and that one God has become three gods.. Then other high raking LDS General Authorities have told us that there are more Gods in the universe than in all the particles of dust on three worlds.. Yes that is shifting sand..

The Church has worshiped the Triune God for over 2,000 years. In this there in no shifting or turning.. Mormonism can't say that because in less than the 200 years it has existed the most basic of Christin doctrine, the Nature of God, has change dramatically.. From one to 3 three, to billions on billions. So where are we to find the true doctrines of mormonism? Just say something totally outrageous, sooner or later it will be a doctrine of mormonism.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

TrueBlue---do you ever wonder why we come. I keep praying that those who really want to know about our beliefs and doctrines will go to the source. I suppose that those who want dirt will always find it just as the Pharisees did of Christ. If they can find fault with One who is perfect, how much more so can they find dirt on those who are not.

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.

Well as they say, A cult together, flock together, or something.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question.

Sure you are avoiding the question. BTW if you hadn't noticed Christ is speaking in both sets of verses so I am not pitting the Father against the Son. So here it is again for you. What is Christ teaching us here?


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.

you are correct.....

the Son does NOTHING on his own.....if the Son draws it is only because it is actually the Father that is drawing men....though the Son.....

[alanmolstad]

we must remember that when each of us is calleld or drawn by god that god never has to take away our free will to draw us.

when god draws us is not like anyone is being forced.

no one forced to believe....

perhaps the term "draw" gets some people mixed up?
I think a better word that means the same might be "allurement"

the meaning of that term is in more agreement with how god draws us closer to himself.

Its like a boy or girl putting on their best clothes to "interest " the other.

when god draws a ssinner the sinner is not saved....but what is of interest to the sinner is the Cross.
God draws the sinner with the Cross.


we always have free will at all times.....but in the Cross of Christ we see the sinner get interested in the path to salvation...

The sinner is drawn to christ and the cross for via the cross the sinner can find the way out of sin and death.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

That is not what the verse says

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:4 KJV)

Nothing about commandments there. Just about being saved, and coming to a knowledge of truth, sounds like a type of drawing unto to me.

Billy, you have completely annihilated that verse. Do you realize that?

1 Ti 2:4 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father and the Son desire All people to obey ALL of the commandments and be saved. But ALL people don't keep the commandments. In fact not a single person has obeyed ALL of the commandments except Christ. God doesn't find pleasure in seeing people disobey Him. But they do. BTW how do you think that this change anything else that we have spoken about i.e election?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Sometimes I do wonder. I take long breaks time to time. There are times when I let the spirit of contention get to me, and I have to go away and take a spiritual shower from it all, then there are those times that I have learned a great deal from the many LDS poster here.

Why don't you and BigJ actually do something novel--and actually read the verses that we give you and accept them as written rather than ignore what they say. That is a major problem why mormons are lost. They have preconceived beliefs and they find verses that on the surface support their position and then completely ignore the vast number of verses that show that your beliefs are completely false. This is exactly what you are doing with the doctrine of predestination/election. We have just gotten started on this subject with two verses in John 6 and you have completely ignored what they say. And I know that you know what these verses are saying because your only explanation is to avoid telling me what these verses say while saying that they pit the Father against the Son. Why not be honest with me and yourself and simply tell me what these verses are saying. BTW if you throw out all of the verses in the Bible about election then sure I would agree with you that there is not such thing as election but I can't do that--but you don't to have an issue with doing this nor do you even see a problem in doing so.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we must remember that when each of us is calleld or drawn by god that god never has to take away our free will to draw us.

when god draws us is not like anyone is being forced.

no one forced to believe....

perhaps the term "draw" gets some people mixed up?
I think a better word that means the same might be "allurement"

the meaning of that term is in more agreement with how god draws us closer to himself.

Its like a boy or girl putting on their best clothes to "interest " the other.

when god draws a ssinner the sinner is not saved....but what is of interest to the sinner is the Cross.
God draws the sinner with the Cross.


we always have free will at all times.....but in the Cross of Christ we see the sinner get interested in the path to salvation...

The sinner is drawn to christ and the cross for via the cross the sinner can find the way out of sin and death.

aaaaaaaa

if I remember correctly, I think it was Luther that taught the idea that the correct understanding of the idea and context of when "God draws us to himself" its a lot like the drawing of lovers to each other.
There is an attraction.
In this case, the attraction is between the sinner and the cross.

So there is never a point where god must remove the free Will of the sinner, rather god attracts the sinner with the Bible's message of forgiveness.
So the sinner always has free will, but does find something very attractive in the forgiveness offered in the cross.
The sinner is drawn to this forgiveness as it is what the sinner seeks, to be forgiven.

[alanmolstad]

so as Christ was lifted up he drew all men to himself...both sinner and saint.
The Believers and the nonbelievers were drawn to the cross.

I take this to mean that the thing the cross brings to mankind is "forgiveness" and it is something that the heart of the sinner is looking for.

So all are called, all are drawn...But few are chosen.
The reason few are is that due to man's free will not all people respond to the offer of forgiveness given in the cross.

they that do respond will draw closer and closer to the Lord and become saved and forgiven.
and if you are in Christ you cant ever fall away from being forgiven.

[alanmolstad]

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......


This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

[TrueBlue?]

Just so all can see how Billyray works, as if anyone hasn't seen it. Below is what Billyray chose to quote.

Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question.

Now here is the full quote.

Billy, I am not avoiding answering your question. I have answered it. In order for verse 36 & 37 to work the way you want them to you would have to set Father against Son. Jesus wills that all men are saved, and come to a knowledge, being as Him and the Father are perfectly unified then we can agree that the Father wishes the same.

Billyray, why do you feel the need to cut out my quote that has the my answer to you in it, then pretend as if I didn't answer you? Do you understand that is bearing false witness? Do you not see how that makes you seem like a very dishonest person when you try and minipulate something to look like one thing when it's clear that what you try and portray isn't the truth? Do you realize how insulting it is, when you do it so blatantly and it's so obvious even to the casual reader?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure you are avoiding the question. BTW if you hadn't noticed Christ is speaking in both sets of verses so I am not pitting the Father against the Son. So here it is again for you. What is Christ teaching us here?


John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1. And who are those who come to Christ according to verse 37
2. Can you tie verses 36 and 37 together and give me the meaning of the two?

I have answered this Billyray. Your contention is with the scriptures, not me.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 Ti 2:4 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Father and the Son desire All people to obey ALL of the commandments and be saved. But ALL people don't keep the commandments. In fact not a single person has obeyed ALL of the commandments except Christ. God doesn't find pleasure in seeing people disobey Him. But they do. BTW how do you think that this change anything else that we have spoken about i.e election?

Billyray, you are wresting the scriptures and forcing things into them that are not there. Of course Christ wants all to obey commandments, but that is not what is being specifically spoken of here is it? Paul is bearing his testimony and teaching of who God is and that God wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of Him and what he did for us.

How does it work? Let's put it together.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:44 KJV)

Now the question here is who does the Father draw? That is where 1 Tim 2:4 comes in. All.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why don't you and BigJ actually do something novel--and actually read the verses that we give you and accept them as written rather than ignore what they say. That is a major problem why mormons are lost. They have preconceived beliefs and they find verses that on the surface support their position and then completely ignore the vast number of verses that show that your beliefs are completely false. This is exactly what you are doing with the doctrine of predestination/election. We have just gotten started on this subject with two verses in John 6 and you have completely ignored what they say. And I know that you know what these verses are saying because your only explanation is to avoid telling me what these verses say while saying that they pit the Father against the Son. Why not be honest with me and yourself and simply tell me what these verses are saying. BTW if you throw out all of the verses in the Bible about election then sure I would agree with you that there is not such thing as election but I can't do that--but you don't to have an issue with doing this nor do you even see a problem in doing so.

Your bearing false witness again and projecting. I have answered your questions with scripture that is plain to the casual reader what is being said. You are the one injecting things into scripture that is never said. 1Tim 2:4 says absolutely nothing about obeying commandments. The only thing that is being spoken of is the desire that all men be saved and all come to knowledge of Christ. Yet you somehow pull out of thin air "obey commandments" because the verse as it stands tears apart calvanist theology.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......


This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Your bearing false witness again and projecting.
.

I am absolutely not bearing false witness rather I am telling the absolute truth. If I thought that the Bible taught that the Father draws ALL people the I would have not problem saying that the Father draws ALL people. But it doesn't. I am trying to be honest with ALL of the verses in the Bible not just some of them like you are. You and BigJ repeatedly ignore verse after verse after verse because they do not line up with your theology. And why is that? Because what you believe is false. I know because I was once LDS and I had to do the same thing as you, cherry pick verses and ignore the mul***ude of verses that testify against mormonism. The verses in John 6 clearly teach that something that you are not willing to accept. That is why you have simply ignored it and tried to give me another verse in an attempt to deflect answering a simple question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

How does it work? Let's put it together.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Now the question here is who does the Father draw? That is where 1 Tim 2:4 comes in. All.

Nowhere in scriptures does it say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. But let's test your theory a little bit.

1. Does the Father draw the men in John 6:36 to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it......

Did the Father die on the cross?

When did the Son see the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this also means that the suggestion that the father was not drawing all men to himself is silly....and with out merit.


The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?

[Billyray]

TrueBlue--we have gone over this hundreds of times on this board--but I want to give you the position that you are arguing against. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what issue you disagree with so we can at focus on that.

1. We are all given commandments to follow

2. We all have a choice to either keep the commandments or to break the commandments

3. Those who keep all of the commandments will live with God again (However nobody keeps all of the commandments--except Christ of course)

4. Those who break the commandments are responsible for breaking the commandments

5. If we do not keep all of the commandments we still have hope to live with God if we place our faith in Christ to save us (and for those in the OT it was in the future Messiah)

6. People have a choice to either accept Christ or reject him and those who reject Him do so willingly. Those who reject Him are not forced to reject Him. Anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved

7. Because of our sinful nature and the fact that we are all "dead in tresp***es" our natural desire is to reject God and his commandments and we willingly do so

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

TrueBlue--we have gone over this hundreds of times on this board--but I want to give you the position that you are arguing against. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what issue you disagree with so we can at focus on that.

I agree with that, Billy and I are about the only ones here that will stand up and defend Calvinism and yet these things we believe 100%.. How can that be? We don't see how it effects God foreknowledge and therefore His authority to predestine believers to life and nonbelievers to the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did the Father die on the cross?

When did the Son see the Father die on the cross?

Do you really think the Father had nothing to do with it? Were not the Father and the Holy Spirit right there with the Son?

John 5:19 "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. ... is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you really think the Father had nothing to do with it? Were not the Father and the Holy Spirit right there with the Son?

Of course the Father had something to do with it. But you must not have read the post very carefully because that is not what was said. I will post what was said below so you can take another look at it.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

. . .The father was in Christ....Christ never did squat on his own.
everything that Christ did was because he saw the Father doing it. . .

This means that if the son said he was drawing all men to himself, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to himself.

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

I fully agree with this. Scripture says so.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say in scripture that the Father died on the cross?

[Libby]

How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

No, the Father did not die on the cross. The Father didn't have a body.

I think I have forgotten what started this conversation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

How could the Father draw anyone to him, without also drawing them to Jesus?

No, the Father did not die on the cross. The Father didn't have a body.

I think I have forgotten what started this conversation.

once again......very good observation Libby!

what i have seen over and over is that billy cant catch-on to the idea that we can have free will while at the same time god is Sovereign.


To him its just something he cant understand.
This is the reason Calvinism had to invent their own rules and answers and pull stuff out of thin air.
It's because they simply could not understand what the bible was teaching.
That man has free will, while at the same time God is sovereign.