Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.

billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....

Libby, you are a Saint to put up with this ...I would have placed him on IGNORE after reporting that post.
We are not supposed to use the term "lie" when talking about the posts of the forum members, but when you look at this post by Billy you have to search for words other than that to describe what is being said about your views.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jacob over Esau always had Free Will.......always....

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Fair enough. But what do you think that this section of scripture is trying to teach us?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....

"Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief."

Alan it seems like from you response that you disagree with what I said above. Is that a fair ***essment?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is why we see so many people understand that Calvinism is simply very wrong....its a man's idea not found in the Bible...

But Alan if you would have at least followed along with the discussion you would have known that Libby's ***ertion against Calvinism was false. Calvinism never makes God responsible for sin--rather man is the one who commits sin therefore man is the one who is responsible. You should be more careful when agreeing with a straw man argument--it will bite you every time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

every person must do so....You cant come to Christ for another...only yourself.

Alan a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ unless that person is enabled to do so by the Father. Do you agree with this?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But Alan if you would have at least followed along with the discussion you would have known that Libby's ***ertion against Calvinism was false. Calvinism never makes God responsible for sin--rather man is the one who commits sin therefore man is the one who is responsible. You should be more careful when agreeing with a straw man argument--it will bite you every time.

My "claim" was poorly worded, so put the blame there. As I mentioned in one of the following posts, my "focus" was on salvation and unbelief. When we make God responsible for the "choosing" (other than by foresight), we make him also responsible for the unbelief of those YOU belief he has not called....because, as you keep mentioning, we cannot come to God without, first, being drawn.

If a person is not drawn (and THAT is a requirement) and God only draws "some"...then, you are making HIM the reason that some are not given the opportunity for salvation. They "cannot" come to him, if he doesn't draw them. Not "will not" but "CANNOT". That makes God responsible, not man.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

billy....with this post you show yourself to about pointless to talk to...

You invent ideas...you pull ideas out of thin air all the time....

Libby, you are a Saint to put up with this ...I would have placed him on IGNORE after reporting that post.
We are not supposed to use the term "lie" when talking about the posts of the forum members, but when you look at this post by Billy you have to search for words other than that to describe what is being said about your views.

No, he's not lying...he is just using my poorly worded claims to take us rather off topic. Billy keeps going back to "sin", in general, which is not really what *I* am talking about. I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically...so, I need to keep reminding him of that.

But, thank you for the support. I can be patient, when I need to be...but, probably not a "saint"! LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan a person doesn't have the ability to come to Christ unless that person is enabled to do so by the Father. Do you agree with this?

There is NOTHING standing in the way of any person.....ZERO....ZIP....Nothing!....except for their own hearts.

If there was anyone, be in heaven or on the earth that has stopped people from believing and has cause them to fall, it would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their necks and tossed into the sea....


The universe is still here.
And the Bible states that all this that we see in the universe declares to all people about the nature of God, so much so, and so clearly seen is this, that no man has any excuse for his unbelief........
So even if you never heard of the Jewish laws, nor ever heard of the person of Christ, you still are without anyone else to blame except for yourself for your lack of faith....

The invisible nature of God are "clearly seen"......This is not an accident.
The universe does not accidentally show us the nature of the Lord...

It's part of the plan.
A way God draws all men to himself...........


So is there anything that must yet happen before you can become a Christian? (see ACTS 8: 36)....The answer is always - No!


You dont have to worry that some other "step" must happen before you can become a member of the Church of believers..>


Its like the following:
I live in a very small town in North Dakota.
on Sunday morning you can hear the church bell ringing, calling all people in town to come to church and worship.

Everyone hears the bell.....this is not an accident.

Regardless of who you are, you are being attracted to come to church........this is not an accident.

Regardless of your current religion, you are being drawn to the church with the bell to come and join them......this is not an accident.


For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.............The universe shows us God's invisible nature.....

This also is not an accident!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan it seems like from you response that you disagree with what I said above. Is that a fair ***essment?

a fair ***essment is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about...and that you cant still be confused as to what i and Libby have said , thus a fair ***essment of your bad behavior is that you invent things that are not true, and that claim others believe in such nonsense ....and if I see you continue with this "now typical" behavor, I will have no problem returning your name to my IGNORE list until I think you start to acting more in-line with the Lord you claim to serve,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My "claim" was poorly worded, so put the blame there. As I mentioned in one of the following posts, my "focus" was on salvation and unbelief.

Yet you seem to totally ignore the main reason that man is punished which is sin. Man breaks the laws and man is responsible. Since you have said that God is "just" what is a "just" punishment for someone who breaks the law?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

When we make God responsible for the "choosing" (other than by foresight), we make him also responsible for the unbelief of those YOU belief he has not called....because, as you keep mentioning, we cannot come to God without, first, being drawn.

One important thing that you also seem to forget is the fact that man does have a "choice" to obey the commandments and a "choice" to place his faith in Christ. God doesn't force someone to reject Christ--that is the choice that the individual makes and it is the choice that the person wants to make. You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There is NOTHING standing in the way of any person.....ZERO....ZIP....Nothing!....except for their own hearts.

You are right about one thing Alan--man does have a "choice" but we also know from scriptures that unregenerate man will always choose to reject Christ. When you use the word "free will" you are using it in that word in the way that I would use the word "choice". That is why I have asked you to define the word on multiple occasions in the past.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy keeps going back to "sin", in general, which is not really what *I* am talking about.

But sin is the whole reason why a person needs a Savior and the basis for punishment in the first place. So when you say that you are not talking about sin you are ignoring the crux of the problem. I am not sure why you don't see that.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

if its not real....then its fake....if its fake then there is no sin.....

If the choice is real, then the results are real...

if the choice is fake, the results are fake, and cant be used against anyone......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if its not real....then its fake....if its fake then there is no sin.....

Alan sometimes I don't think you even read my posts--even when you quote it in your own post. Did you bother reading my statement that you quoted?

Here it is again for you "You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

[alanmolstad]

So this means that when all men are asked to "repent and believe"....that all men must be able to do this.....

if all men are not able to do this, then the request to do so is fake....and thus the results of asking people to do something that is fake are moot....



the moment you take away all men's ability to decided for themselves free of all interference, or all men's free will you make Jesus a clown......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So this means that when all men are asked to "repent and believe"....that all men must be able to do this.....

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
2. You and I would likely agree that we all have a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Do you have the ability to keep all of the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here it is again for you "You have said that this is not a real choice but to the person making that choice it is real to them.

over and over and over I keep telling you that it has to be a real choice.....and yet you invent your own **** and try to paint me with it....


So one again...(not that I believe for one moment you will grasp the concept) The choice to believe or not has to be real, or else the whole christian faith is a totally fake thing, and regardless of what you decide you cant be held guilty of making the wrong decision.


But because we know we are held guilty for a bad decision we therefore know the choice we made was real.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
[/COLOR]

we are never asked to do things we cant do...

1 John 2:1

So we are told that we dont have to sin....sin is never God's plan for our behavior.
But if a guy does sin, there is yet a answer to this too.


"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One


so we dont have to sin, and we have been given the words of the Bible to keep us from sinning.
But if later we do sin, then we have to us yet an answer to this too...

[alanmolstad]

so we are asked to repent and believe.......because we can!

we are asked to follow the commandments.....because we can!

But we are told that not all will repent and believe, because we can also refuse to believe.
and if we sin and break the commandments, we have an advocate





the word of God to "Repent and Believe" is given to us because we have Free Will and can repent and believe.
and we have need of an advocate because we do have Free Will,...and our free will is real, and it gives us the ability to turn off the right path.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Everyone has a choice to either keep the commandments or to break them and those who have heard about Christ have the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Let me ask you a question that might help you understand my position a little better.

1. We are asked to obey the commandments
2. You and I would likely agree that we all have a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Do you have the ability to keep all of the commandments?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we are never asked to do things we cant do...

So you believe that we have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Jesus. Alan this is not Biblical--you should know this. You are guilty of the same heresy as Pelagius (the Pelagian heresy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that we have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Jesus. Alan this is not Biblical--you should know this.

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


did God ever ask us to hold our breath and swim down to the bottom of the deepest sea to be saved?.......why not?


the reason is that we are human, and we simply "could not' do such things.
Because regardless of the situation we "could not" do such things, it would be crazy of a god to demand that we do such things to be saved.

You cant ask people to do things that they cant ever do, and then send them to hell for being unable to do them.

Case - Closed!


so this means that all that god gave mankind to do, is within our ability to do, or else we would never be asked to do it, or judged for failing to do it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

over and over and over I keep telling you that it has to be a real choice.....and yet you invent your own **** and try to paint me with it....


So one again...(not that I believe for one moment you will grasp the concept) The choice to believe or not has to be real, or else the whole christian faith is a totally fake thing, and regardless of what you decide you cant be held guilty of making the wrong decision.


But because we know we are held guilty for a bad decision we therefore know the choice we made was real.....

lets not overlook this idea I have shared here.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


did God ever ask us to hold our breath and swim down to the bottom of the deepest sea to be saved?.......why not?


the reason is that we are human, and we simply "could not' do such things.
Because regardless of the situation we "could not" do such things, it would be crazy of a god to demand that we do such things to be saved.

You cant ask people to do things that they cant ever do, and then send them to hell for being unable to do them.

Case - Closed!


so this means that all that god gave mankind to do, is within our ability to do, or else we would never be asked to do it, or judged for failing to do it.

Alan I know that you won't listen to me but there is not another Christian on this board who agrees with you on this point and to top it off I bet you won't find a single mormon either.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I know that you won't listen to me but there is not another Christian on this board who agrees with you .

ahhh...you mean James?...LOL

No I did not guess he would actually.....what would be the sport in that?

So pointing out how my views differ that yours and James is not actually going to keep any person up at night with worry.......