Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In my example it is the same.

And in my example the person who was pardoned was guilty.


As does the 1 who is pardoned by the Governor.

You falsely ***ume that it is for no other reason because of your preconceived ideas.

But those who are not saved are not his children. So your ****ogy is false. Let's use the Bible to correct your ****ogy to fit the truth.

Libby's example corrected to fit what the Bible teaches
My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their child. Suppose a parent had one child AND there are 9 ohter kids who live in your neighborhood and you gave a gift to your child but didn't a give gift to the neighborhood kids Wouldn't that be a bit strange?

What would be strange is for you to give a gift that you gave your child to every other kid who lived in your neighborhood.

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Acts 15:9
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What message is Peter trying to convey with this section of scripture?

Who are "them" in verse 8?

"Them" are the gentiles...and God does not discriminate.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 2
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.

As above there is a comparison between the Jew and the Gentile. If a Jew breaks the commandments he will punished. If a gentile breaks the commandments he will be punished. Jews believed that because of their heritage that they would somehow be better off than the Gentiles. But Paul goes on to show them that both the Jew and the Gentile breaks the law.

Yes, and once again, it shows God does not discriminate.

This verse says: "but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good"

"everyone"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.

Your example about has nothing to do whatsoever with my original example or my follow up comments. Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

Libby you are hell bent on trying to defend your preconceived beliefs despite the fact that the Bible doesn't agree with your position--yet you are holding onto to these beliefs. Why do you seem to have such a hard time reading the Bible and accept what you are reading without trying to read your own biases into the text?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, and once again, it shows God does not discriminate.

This verse says: "but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good"

"everyone"

What point do you think Paul was trying to make in Romans 2? Could you give me a brief overview?

[Libby]

You think I am doing that...but, I think you are doing that, Billy. You're so used to seeing it through Calvinist theology, you can't seem to focus anywhere else.

Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do? Why would he or the Father discriminate? Especially, when he makes a point of telling us he doesn't discriminate....and that he invites ALL to come to him in faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You think I am doing that...but, I think you are doing that, Billy. You're so used to seeing it through Calvinist theology, you can't seem to focus anywhere else.

I have seen it from the mormon point of view, from the arminian point of view, and the calvinist point of view--although I have seen it for all these points of view--the only view that I can support from the Bible is the Reformed or Calvinsit point of view. If the Bible taught the Arminian point of view I would have no problems holding this view. You on the other hand have this subjective personal belief of how God should act and you try your best to scour the Bible for anything you can to try and support it--while at the same time ignore verse and verse. This is exactly what the lds do when discussing the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do? Why would he or the Father discriminate? Especially, when he makes a point of telling us he doesn't discriminate....and that he invites ALL to come to him in faith.

Merriam Webster
dis·crim·i·nate verb \dis-ˈkri-mə-ˌnāt\
: to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups

It is not "unfair" to punish the murderer for the crimes that he or she has committed even though one of the ten is pardoned.

[alanmolstad]

The offer of salvation goes out to all men,....so there is equality in the offer being made by God though His Son.
Thus the Lord does not "discriminate"

the offer is taken up by they who use there Free Will to believe.

Again this too is based on equality as all men have Free Will....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.

Yes...!!!!!


Libby, Very good point to make.

As we read in John 3:16, God so loved the WHOLE WORLD........not just the few.....not just the elect........not just the believers......

But God loved the WHOLE WORLD, that He gave his only Son....

So the offer of the Son is made to the Whole World...(in the case of your example of the drowning kid, God moved to save the whole world of drowning kids.....and did so equally)

But God does not force people to believe against their Free Will....and the sad fact is that even they among us who are drowning in sin still refuse the one way out of their situation.
You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink.....
Christ said he would have gathered people to himself, but that the people "would not" allow it.


"Would not" is different than saying "could not"


So back to your example of the drowning kids in a pool....God tossed them the lifeline, but while many grab hold of it and are pulled to life, many dislike the lord so much that even the one lifeline they are given they refuse to grab......

Its not that they "could not" grasp the line,,,,but rather they die due to the fact that they "would not"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The offer of salvation goes out to all men.

Hey Alan we finally agree on something--sort of--the offer of salvation goes out to all men--to those who have heard about Christ--and those who have heard about Him and his message have the "choice" to either place their faith in Him or reject Him.

But since we don't agree 100% on this one permit me to ask you a follow up question that will likely show where we actually differ.

Do you think that every single person that has ever lived upon the earth has heard about Christ and his message?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

As we read in John 3:16, God so loved the WHOLE WORLD........not just the few.....not just the elect........not just the believers......

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Alan this verse is 100% true as written. "Whoever believes" in Christ shall be saved. However has every single person in the WHOLE WORLD throughout the entire course of human history heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you think that every single person that has ever lived upon the earth has heard about Christ and his message?

I posted a video that shows Walter Martin teaching that "No person ever went to Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ"

You are given a light from heaven...all of us...regardless of the age we lived in or the distance from the church....we all receive a light from heaven and if we respond to that light it draws us to the brighter light.

This is why we are told that we are judged according to how we judge others.....or are forgiven according to how we forgive others.
This is so because not all will hear about Jesus....not all of us in the whole human race will live during a time when there was a church, or a Bible.

I believe that "light" from heaven is still the Lord Christ.....so i cant say the person is free of all knowledge of Christ, as Christ is God, and the universe itself teaches us about God's nature....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

However has every single person in the WHOLE WORLD throughout the entire course of human history heard about Christ?

in a way, yes.

Christ is God.
The universe of things that are made show us "clearly" about the invisible nature of God.
Therefore the "light" that all men receive that we must respond to, is actually the light of Christ.

[alanmolstad]

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I have seen it from the mormon point of view, from the arminian point of view, and the calvinist point of view--although I have seen it for all these points of view--the only view that I can support from the Bible is the Reformed or Calvinsit point of view. If the Bible taught the Arminian point of view I would have no problems holding this view. You on the other hand have this subjective personal belief of how God should act and you try your best to scour the Bible for anything you can to try and support it--while at the same time ignore verse and verse. This is exactly what the lds do when discussing the Bible.

I've held all of those points of view, as well, Billy, and I disagree that the Calvinist view is in the Bible. There are too many other indications, in there, that God loves us all and wishes for all to come to Him (that is nearly a direct quote). You are focusing in on what you "believe" it says and ignoring or somehow redefining anything that might take you in another direction.

[Libby]

Billy: Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

To repeat the question.....In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Merriam Webster
dis·crim·i·nate verb \dis-ˈkri-mə-ˌnāt\
: to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups

It is not "unfair" to punish the murderer for the crimes that he or she has committed even though one of the ten is pardoned.

You put the emphasis in the wrong place.

"to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups"

This is exactly what the Calvinist view does! It treats a group of people "differently" from other groups. It has God regenerating and thus saving a particular group of people, for no reason other than "his good pleasure". That is discrimination (which God does not do) and it's just wrong. Our Great God does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He wishes for ALL to come to Him.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is good. Thanks, Alan!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I posted a video that shows Walter Martin teaching that "No person ever went to Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ"

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them. That is the basis for sending anyone to Hell. For some reason you and Libby seem to forget that. And Alan you have said yourself that every single one of us is capable of keeping all of the commandments just like Jesus.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in a way, yes.

Christ is God.
The universe of things that are made show us "clearly" about the invisible nature of God.
Therefore the "light" that all men receive that we must respond to, is actually the light of Christ.

Everyone has a knowledge that there is a God and everyone has an inner sense of right and wrong. But not every single person throughout the history of man has heard of Jesus. This alone disproves your belief that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Not to mention the Bible never says that the Father draws ALL to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've held all of those points of view, as well, Billy, and I disagree that the Calvinist view is in the Bible.

But you have yet to show me from the Bible that your position is correct. You have a point of view that feels right to you and you are digging and scratching to find anything to support your position--while ignoring verse after verse that shows that your position is wrong.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

. . ."to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups". . .

The Bible teaches us that we are given commandments to keep, we break those commandments, and each one of us are responsible for breaking them. We are ALL deserving of punishment and it would be fair and just to send every single one of us to Hell. Just like it is fair for the judge to sentence all 10 convicteds murderers for their crime.

But I want to comment on what you said above--"to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups". It is "fair" to punish a person for what they have done. But you seem to think that God treats all people the same. Let's start in the OT. Did God treat all people groups the same or did he have a chosen group of people?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is good. Thanks, Alan!

Do you believe that a person can be saved independent of Christ?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them.

You left out the final reason whey people go to hell:
People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them and God chose to not save them.

It's like this scenario: A bunch of people were given the rules against walking out on a frozen lake. The people broke those rules and walked out on the ice, broke through, and are drowning. A lifeguard is watching all this as it occurs, and is able to save all of them. If any of those people drown, why did they drown?

Because they were given the rules, they broke the rules, and the lifeguard failed to save them.

In Calvinism, the lifeguard has 3 options: He can save all of the people from drowning, or just some of them, or none of them, and He chooses to save a few and let most of them drown.

That is unfair discrimination, because it's not fair to save a few of the people from drowning when all of them broke the rules....unless the ones He chooses to save, did something differently from the others--something that the lifeguard decided changed their status from "Let them drown" to "I should save them." Something that all the people had the ability to do, but some of them weren't willing to do it.
This is LDS soteriology, and perhaps Arminian soteriology as well.