Free Will

[alanmolstad]

[disciple]

I think we all would agree that scripture should be the final authority, that God is
no respecter of persons and that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So if we look at how God dealt with the people of Israel, could we say that He would
give all people the same consideration He showed them?
Romans 1:20-21 says,” For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” This says to me that all people know there is a God but some choose to reject Him. Ezekiel 2:1-7 seems to say that God tells Ezekiel to give the people His word and whether they accept it or not is their choice, but they will know they did have a choice.
“And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse—for they are a rebellious house—yet they will know that a prophet has been among them.
“And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house. You shall speak My words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse, for they are rebellious. “
Just something to ponder.

[Libby]

Disciple, I think, ultimately, God did give ALL the same consideration that was given to Israel.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby....what commandment was given that god never once ever expected people to keep?......In other words....what Commandment was given to men with the instruction that it was just for "looks"....and that people did not have to take it serious?

I don't think it was any one commandment. I don't think it was even a matter of "expectation", exactly. Holiness is a state in which God exists. Perfect, pure, untainted. Our sin nature, inherited from Adam and Eve, caused an inability to keep the commandments perfectly (especially in our hearts)..and this was keeping us separated from God. Our condition (which is innate...it is a part of our human nature) was something God knew we could not overcome...which is why He sent His Son.

If we could have truly overcome this sin nature, on our own, then we would not have needed God's help, in the form of His Son.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when you read the different translations and get an idea of what the verse is saying, I dont see how you can come up with the idea that the girl was not told to go and 'sin no more"

No one is saying that Jesus was telling her to keep on sinning.

It seems to be the preponderance of views of the translators of this verse that this was a general instruction for how the person is to live....and not limited at all!

Context. What was the context of this whole story? Adultery. In that context, it seems to me that what was so effective at stopping the would-be stone throwers in their tracks, was that they themselves were guilty of having committed adultery. That's why when Jesus said "Let any of you who hasn't committed (THIS) sin throw the first stone," they all had to drop their rocks, because none of them was innocent of this sin.

I am also aware of the theory that those accusers of the woman had all committed adultery with HER, which makes them even bigger hypocrites for wanting to execute her for the sin.

The reason Jesus most probably did NOT mean "Let he who is totally, 100% innocent of ANY sin WHATSOEVER throw the first rock at her" is that its implications would be that He was against anyone being punished for anything, which makes little sense.

Now we know full well that the girl was there because she was in-fact guilty of a sin that she was caught red-handed in....so that is naturally on everyone's mind.
But when Jesus sends her off he does so with a very wide-ranging command for her to follow....."Sin no more"
I doubt Jesus was telling her, "Well only stop doing the sins you got caught doing", for that sounds like something a 2-year old would think up.(Stop doing the stuff you get caught doing)

Aren't we all like 2-year-olds in a sense? Did Jesus REALLY expect that woman, who had probably been committing adultery many, many times, to suddenly cease from all sins of every kind? That seems very, very, unreasonable. What is reasonable is that He meant "I just saved you from being executed for adultery. Don't do it anymore."

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins


It's one thing to tell someone like Paul "Up to now you have been an accomplice to the persecution and killing of Christians. Stop doing that right now and never do it again." It's quite another to tell him "Stop committing any sins at all, right now."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think there is one area where Alan and I disagree and that is in regards to whether or not we can keep all the commandments perfectly. But, on the subject of "drawing all men" we are in perfect agreement. God would do no less. He does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He is drawing ALL people to Himself, through the Son.

As you said we seem to disagree on whether or not the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Perhaps we can sort this out. Permit me to ask you a few questions about your position. Let's start with this one.

Do you believe that faith in Christ is required for salvation?

Or do you believe that any belief in a "high power" is all that is necessary for salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

If a murderer felt really bad that he has killed someone should he go free?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Disciple, I think, ultimately, God did give ALL the same consideration that was given to Israel.

Did God have a chosen people in the OT?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.

So what exactly is your position? Is salvation based on keeping the commandments?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins

So what is the point that you are trying to make? That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what exactly is your position? Is salvation based on keeping the commandments?

yes......Jesus makes that clear

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think it was any one commandment. .

so when you look at the list of Commandments that have ever been given....you dont find any that were just for "looks"?

Everyone of them was something that people could keep?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did God have a chosen people in the OT?

Yes, he did and he still does. Those who believe and follow him.

Were all of the Israelites saved?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so when you look at the list of Commandments that have ever been given....you dont find any that were just for "looks"?

Everyone of them was something that people could keep?

When it comes to the early laws, the Mosaic Law, there were hundreds of laws...I don't think I even know all of them. But, those in Christ are no longer under the law.

Philippians 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surp***ing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ

We're not saved by obeying the law or commands. We obey, because we are saved in Christ. We are in him and he is in us. It's his righteousness that saves us, not our own.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a murderer felt really bad that he has killed someone should he go free?

He shouldn't be punished as severely as a murderer who doesn't feel bad at all.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what is the point that you are trying to make?

I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.

That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?

The issue was punishment. In a fair judicial system, a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy is punished a little bit less than the next guy. Making the punishment fit the crime is an "essential doctrine" of any fair system.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.

Wouldn't it be fair and just to punish all of us for being law breakers?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

In a fair judicial system, a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy is punished a little bit less than the next guy. Making the punishment fit the crime is an "essential doctrine" of any fair system.

Then you would agree that the judicial system is not fair. Right?

And how does this relate to how we are judged by God as it relates to the Bible?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what is the point that you are trying to make? That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.

But the post that I quoted wasn't speaking about punishment rather it was about stopping some sins verses all sins? Perhaps you could address that instead of something else.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Wouldn't it be fair and just to punish all of us for being law breakers?

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.

If we are law breakers then a "just" judge will punish us for our crimes. Right?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If we are law breakers then a "just" judge will punish us for our crimes. Right?

Fairness and degree of sin seem to be based on human reasoning. James 2:10 says,"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Without Jesus, one lie will keep you separated from God as quickly as 10 murders will.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.

This is my point, as well. The Bible says, in numerous places, that God does not discriminate. I listed several verses in one of my posts above. God does not randomly choose for salvation.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is my point, as well. The Bible says, in numerous places, that God does not discriminate. I listed several verses in one of my posts above. God does not randomly choose for salvation.

This is not the forum to discuss your rejection of Reformed theology. We are to discuss Mormonism. Read Romans 9 and try to reconcile it with your very flawed understanding of the Bible.

[Libby]

It's not your place to decide what is discussed here, Apologette, and I am not the only one discussing it. I didn't even start this thread.

There are very few posters here, right now, so I don't think anyone really cares. Would you like to see the board even more dead that it is now?

This conversation has been a good one and Billy has been kind enough to facilitate it.