Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Why did those in verse 64 not believe according to Jesus?

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

I would read that as "the beginning of time" or before the earth was formed. Is that how you read that?

Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Those who did not believe in verse 64 were not enabled to do so. This proves that the Father does not draw ALL men to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

You keep bringing this up but you don't explain why you think this is relevant to the situation. Can you explain this for me?

Originally Posted by Libby

Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.

Jesus says in John 6 that those who are drawn by the Father to Christ will be raised. It never says that ALL are drawn and a few are raised.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I mean that the Father is attracting everyone, but only some will respond. He knows in advance who those will be.

I am still not clear what you mean when you say ALL are drawn. Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

You said "He knows in advance who those will be." Tell me how this plays out from your perspective because I am still unclear what you believe about this.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am still not clear what you mean when you say ALL are drawn. Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

.

I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

I would read that as "the beginning of time" or before the earth was formed. Is that how you read that?

Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.

This is very true lets remember that the whole of the human race is drawn to the cross of Christ by God.
Yet some hear, some do not pay attention to what they hear, some listen for a time and then go after something else...poor roots and stuff.

But God knew from the beginning who would believe (naturally as God knows all things) yet God never takes away out Free Will in the effort to save the elect.


Keep up the Good work Libby!......you are an inspiration for us who cant always find the time to post here,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

Alan perhaps you could clear this up for me and tell me what you believe.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan perhaps you could clear this up for me and tell me what you believe.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

Once again......same answer...

You fake your ignorance poorly.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Once again......same answer...

You fake your ignorance poorly.

Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

Dude......move on

we have already done that...
I have answered the question fully and completely.

lets not allow you to get 'stuck" when you simply turn into a skipping record and keep asking the same question over and over...

(You do remember how that is not something I put up with?)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Those who did not believe in verse 64 were not enabled to do so. This proves that the Father does not draw ALL men to Christ.

Okay, I see.

I am reading it as:

...all are drawn

...only some will believe

...those who believe will be "enabled" by the Father to come to Christ

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You keep bringing this up but you don't explain why you think this is relevant to the situation. Can you explain this for me?



Jesus says in John 6 that those who are drawn by the Father to Christ will be raised. It never says that ALL are drawn and a few are raised.

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

Actually, Alan did answer that some time ago. He referred to the "light of Christ" covering the earth (or being in all men? something like that)....remember? Pretty sure he had some scripture references to go with it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

...those who believe will be "enabled" by the Father to come to Christ

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You have belief coming before being enabled.

BTW you continue to believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ--but you have not shown me this from the scriptures. Perhaps you could answer a few questions for me

1. Do you believe that ALL men that have ever lived have heard about Christ?

2. Is salvation based on faith in Christ OR simply a belief in a god or higher power?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, Alan did answer that some time ago. He referred to the "light of Christ" covering the earth (or being in all men? something like that)....remember?

So would you say that his answer is a yes or no that every person that has lived on this earth has heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.

But I thought that you believed that ALL are drawn not MANY. So do you believe ALL are drawn or MANY are drawn?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Dude......move on

If you answer my question or link me to the post where you think you answered my question I will move on.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.

ESV STUDY BIBLE
". . .22:14 Many (Gk. polloi) are called means that many have been invited to the wedding feast. But not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there, because few are chosen. This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”:the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not. However, Paul also mentions another kind of calling, an effective calling from God that comes powerfully to individuals and brings a positive response. When the gospel is proclaimed, only some are effectively called—that is, those who are the elect, who respond with true faith (1 Cor. 1:24, 26–28). This is consistent with Jesus 'statement that “few are chosen,” for the ones “chosen” (Gk. eklektos, “selected, chosen”) are “the elect,” a term used by Jesus to refer to his true disciples (cf. Matt. 11:27; 24:22, 24, 31; on the theme of election, see note on Rom. 9:11). . ."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You have belief coming before being enabled.

BTW you continue to believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ--but you have not shown me this from the scriptures. Perhaps you could answer a few questions for me

1. Do you believe that ALL men that have ever lived have heard about Christ?

2. Is salvation based on faith in Christ OR simply a belief in a god or higher power?

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But I thought that you believed that ALL are drawn not MANY. So do you believe ALL are drawn or MANY are drawn?

I do believe all are called, because the Bible says so. The "many" vs the "few" is just a poetic way of saying that not all will answer the call.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV STUDY BIBLE
". . .22:14 Many (Gk. polloi) are called means that many have been invited to the wedding feast. But not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there, because few are chosen. This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”:the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not. However, Paul also mentions another kind of calling, an effective calling from God that comes powerfully to individuals and brings a positive response. When the gospel is proclaimed, only some are effectively called—that is, those who are the elect, who respond with true faith (1 Cor. 1:24, 26–28). This is consistent with Jesus 'statement that “few are chosen,” for the ones “chosen” (Gk. eklektos, “selected, chosen”) are “the elect,” a term used by Jesus to refer to his true disciples (cf. Matt. 11:27; 24:22, 24, 31; on the theme of election, see note on Rom. 9:11). . ."

Which study Bible are you using, Billy? I have a Reformation Study Bible (ESV) and it says, basically, the same thing, but not exactly. Close enough, though. And, yes, of course the study notes will give a Calvinist interpretation, if they were written by a Calvinist.

I know about the "general call" vs the "particular call".

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.

the lesser light will lead us to the greater light....
but remember its all the same light.
and that single light is Christ.

so when the bible tells us that the things that are made show us about god...we can know that what is being shown to us is Christ!

Christ made all things so the handywork of god on display shows all people about Jesus!

[Libby]

Thanks for repeating that, Alan. I had forgotten exactly what you said. (Obviously, Billy has forgotten, as well ;-) )

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks for repeating that, Alan. I had forgotten exactly what you said. (Obviously, Billy has forgotten, as well ;-) )

I dont actually think Billy is really asking anything....dont ask me what game he has going however...

What we know is that the Bible tells us that there is so much seen true about God's nature just all around us in the things that are made that none of us has any "excuse"
This verse came up once in my bible cl***, and the question was asked about it "Excuse for what?"

the context tells us that what the 'excuse" is talking about...its saying that the things about God that lead a person to faith and SALVATION are "clearly seen" in the things that are made.

This is not an accident too!

It's not an accident that God is shown 'clearly" in the things that are made because it was Jesus that made all things!

So these invisible things about God's nature that are being said are shown clearly to all men, are dealing with "Jesus Christ!"
this is why we can say that all men have received from Heaven a light, and that light is the light of Christ!

This is why the answer to the question Billy asks about dealing with if all men have received the drawing action to the Lord Jesus Christ?...is ..."yes"

The truth is, that all men are receiving this drawing action by God to come to Christ....for from the beginning of the world this same message about God has been clearly seen in the things that are made....
Creation reflects only one person's hand....for it reflects the handywork of none other that same Jesus!


This is why none of us has an excuse!

God is drawing all men to himself.

For when Christ was raised up he truly did draw all men to himself!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Which study Bible are you using, Billy? I have a Reformation Study Bible (ESV) and it says, basically, the same thing, but not exactly. Close enough, though. And, yes, of course the study notes will give a Calvinist interpretation, if they were written by a Calvinist.

I know about the "general call" vs the "particular call".

Im not sure about some of these terms....But this is what i do know for sure.

I know that the whole universe draws men to god , for it is true that the very nature of god is "clearly seen" in the things that are made.
So much so that a person has no excuse for not believing.....and the only believing that counts is the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

thus you can say that the universe is an active calling of god to us to believe.

This is kinda like in my home town when the church bell rings on Sunday morning.
Everyone in town hears the bell.....just as everyone born sees clearly the things of God's nature reflected in the things that are made.

But not everyone listens to the church bell, they hear it, but they dont get dressed and go to church.
Just as not everyone responds to the drawing of God.

All receive, some respond......many are called, few are chosen.
The idea is that "God so loved the "WHOLE WORLD" that he gave his Son",,,,,,God loved the whole world, both they who would believe and they who would never believe.


But just as not all go to church when they hear the bell, not all believe even if the drawing action of God to his son is so "clearly seen" in the things that are made.

But there is a reason the bell is so loud....it was designed to be!
It's not an accident that the bell is so loud that it can be heard from one end of town to the other......

just as it is no accident that the universe reflects the maker and can bring faith to the person....for it was designed to do this!


No person walks into church without being drawn there by the sound of the bell
just as no person becomes a Christian without first being drawn to the Son by the father.