Free Will

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is very true lets remember that the whole of the human race is drawn to the cross of Christ by God.
Yet some hear, some do not pay attention to what they hear, some listen for a time and then go after something else...poor roots and stuff.

But God knew from the beginning who would believe (naturally as God knows all things) yet God never takes away out Free Will in the effort to save the elect.


Keep up the Good work Libby!......you are an inspiration for us who cant always find the time to post here,

Bologna. If every man was drawn to Christ, why did He say this:

Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44).

John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



Some are "sheep" and follow the Shepherd, Jesus. Some are not His sheep, and will follow any Tom, **** or Harry, who comes down the false prophecy trail with an interesting story:

John 10:10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If the Father draws all, why did Jesus make the qualification that none would be saved unless the Father draws them. Doesn't take a real genius to figure that out.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

Who do you think you are interjecting yourself here between Libby and Billyray, a faithful Christian? Just because you are obviously an Arminian and have said vulgar things here about John Calvin, doesn't give you the right to question the integrity of Christians. You won't be satisfied, will you, until you are the Last non-Mormon left here, and have the whole board to yourself, where you can set up some kind of Mormon-Christian friendship league and minimize core Christian doctrines so they can be synthesized into a Christianity compatible with Mormonism. And you have the nerve to tell others to apologize!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.

If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?

All men ie mankind can never be drawn at once, and even if it were possible it can never be sustained. The next generation may reject Christ, as we now see this Nation doing right before our eyes.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is why the answer to the question Billy asks about dealing with if all men have received the drawing action to the Lord Jesus Christ?...is ..."yes"

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1 tells us that all men deep down know that there is a high power based on the creation. But they don't know any details about who the true God is nor do they know about Jesus based on the looking at the universe itself. In order to know about the true God and about Jesus we need direct revelation--which in most cases this is given to us through the scriptures. That is why people believe in many different gods because they feel a need to believe in a higher power but they don't know who that higher power is exactly.

That is why I asked you if you if you believe that ALL men have heard about Christ. It appears from your answer that you do believe that ALL men who have ever lived have heard about Christ. The problem is that nobody agrees with you on this one--not even Libby.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?

I tried to explain that in the very post that you quoted.

Remember that there were many who lived before Christ (even prophets) who did not, personally, know Jesus Christ.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

All men ie mankind can never be drawn at once, and even if it were possible it can never be sustained. The next generation may reject Christ, as we now see this Nation doing right before our eyes.

There is the "general call" of the Gospel which goes out to all men, bidding them to come to Christ to be saved.

There is the "particular call" of the Father, drawing those who will be saved to Christ.

Obviously, if the Father draws a person, He is sovereign, and not men - and those whom He draws will come.

[Libby]

Okay, this was an interesting article and the author shows that even before Christ there were some "gentiles" or people not of Israel, who were considered "saved".

"Not only people belonging to the chosen people of Israel are said to be saved, but also Gentiles. Melchizedek is a mysterious character who had no family ties with Abraham, but still was called "priest of the God Most High" (Genesis 14,18). He worshiped the same God, and Abraham paid ***hes to him. Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, finding out what God had done through the Jewish nation, accepted by faith that the God of Moses was the true god. Rahab, the pros***ute (!), risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31). This was the effective way she expressed her faith in the true God and therefore was counted among the heroes of faith. Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27) banished his pride when he understood who the true God was, proving his faith by the decision to abandon idolatry."

http://www.comparativereligion.com/neverheard.html

This whole article is very interesting and worth reading in full.

[Libby]

continued from the above article...

"None of these people of the Old Testament were saved through their merits, but through the grace of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, retroactively attributed to them. Their faith was the channel through which God granted them salvation. Today he uses the same channel for all people who accept the sacrifice of Christ as the atoning solution for their sins (Hebrews 11,39-40). Although today we have available the final revelation of God through Christ, the object of faith has always been the same - God himself, and the basis of his forgiveness was always Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Whether one lived before or after Jesus’ crucifixion, God’s forgiveness was always granted through grace and not by one’s own merits, and the proper way of accepting grace was always faith."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I tried to explain that in the very post that you quoted.

Remember that there were many who lived before Christ (even prophets) who did not, personally, know Jesus Christ.

Abraham and the prophets etc. knew about the promised Messiah and their salvation was based on faith in the Messiah (Christ) the same way that the NT believers are saved.

Which brings up my question again, it you acknowledge that not every person even knows about Christ why do you believe that ALL men where drawn by the Father to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Apologette

There is the "general call" of the Gospel which goes out to all men, bidding them to come to Christ to be saved.

There is the "particular call" of the Father, drawing those who will be saved to Christ.

Obviously, if the Father draws a person, He is sovereign, and not men - and those whom He draws will come.

if God knew before the foundation of the World the color of hair and the number then he must know who will accept Him and who will reject Him. Thus God has the power and all rights to simply not have those who will reject Him to ever be born.
Thus man does not have free will, but if he does than free will thus doomed him to Hell.
It is a catch 22, this is why the argument is never settled.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

if God knew before the foundation of the World the color of hair and the number then he must know who will accept Him and who will reject Him. Thus God has the power and all rights to simply not have those who will reject Him to ever be born.
Thus man does not have free will, but if he does than free will thus doomed him to Hell.
It is a catch 22, this is why the argument is never settled.

Libby and I have already discussed this and perhaps you have already read our discussion but here it is again in case you missed it. Man has a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But man doesn't have the ability to keep the commandments. So if you apply the same argument that you and Libby would make for election to the commandments you would say that man doesn't have a real choice to obey the commandments.

[Apologette]

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?

I agree with this.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by cheachea

I agree with this.

Thank you.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham and the prophets etc. knew about the promised Messiah and their salvation was based on faith in the Messiah (Christ) the same way that the NT believers are saved.

Which brings up my question again, it you acknowledge that not every person even knows about Christ why do you believe that ALL men where drawn by the Father to Christ?

"Not only people belonging to the chosen people of Israel are said to be saved, but also Gentiles. Melchizedek is a mysterious character who had no family ties with Abraham, but still was called "priest of the God Most High" (Genesis 14,18). He worshiped the same God, and Abraham paid ***hes to him. Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, finding out what God had done through the Jewish nation, accepted by faith that the God of Moses was the true god. Rahab, the pros***ute (!), risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31). This was the effective way she expressed her faith in the true God and therefore was counted among the heroes of faith. Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27) banished his pride when he understood who the true God was, proving his faith by the decision to abandon idolatry."

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

"Rahab, the pros***ute, risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31)."

Josh. 6:25 But Rahab the pros***ute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

You don't think that she learned about the coming Messiah from the Jews who knew about the coming Messiah?


So tell me how were the OT saints saved if belief in Christ (the coming Messiah) wasn't necessary for salvation--according to you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?

I understand your concern and I agree that since this is the Mormon board we should discuss Mormonism. A couple of points that you might consider. First Mormons love to discuss this and second there are not any Mormons posting on this board at the moment. I have found that when discussing things with Mormons (when they do post on this board) that if you don't answer their questions they think you are hiding something from them. So if they want to talk about it I will discuss it with them and show them that they are wrong with this topic and with any Mormon topic. Once they realize that they are wrong they will change the subject and move on.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

Doesn't this statement **** your whole argument that the Father draws ALL men to Christ when you admit that you believe that they haven't even heard about Christ?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I understand your concern and I agree that since this is the Mormon board we should discuss Mormonism. A couple of points that you might consider. First Mormons love to discuss this and second there are not any Mormons posting on this board at the moment. I have found that when discussing things with Mormons (when they do post on this board) that if you don't answer their questions they think you are hiding something from them. So if they want to talk about it I will discuss it with them and show them that they are wrong with this topic and with any Mormon topic. Once they realize that they are wrong they will change the subject and move on.

There appears to be one Mormon posting here.

[Apologette]

The two Arminians posting here aren't really open to Sovereign Grace, have you noticed?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Apologette

The two Arminians posting here aren't really open to Sovereign Grace, have you noticed?

I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

I sort of think they don't really have a real knowledge of the Scriptures, or have trained themselves to ignore it. The Bible doubtless teaches the Sovereign Grace doctrines of irresistible grace, the particular call of God, and the perseverance of the saints - along with a limited atonement. But, I'm afraid you're not going to find much of a reception here for these biblical doctrines.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I sort of think they don't really have a real knowledge of the Scriptures, or have trained themselves to ignore it. The Bible doubtless teaches the Sovereign Grace doctrines of irresistible grace, the particular call of God, and the perseverance of the saints - along with a limited atonement. But, I'm afraid you're not going to find much of a reception here for these biblical doctrines.

I agree with you very few posters here are receptive to Biblical doctrine, but there aren't many posters here to start with. However we get a few Mormons that pop in now and again--usually just for a few days and then they disappear again. I come and go as well. If there are some topics that I like to discuss I will hang around for a while. For example I posted a topic that I find interesting about animal sacrifice in the lds temples--but I have yet to have any lds respond to this. I hope some lds will respond to this one because I would like to hear what they have to say about this.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with you very few posters here are receptive to Biblical doctrine, but there aren't many posters here to start with. However we get a few Mormons that pop in now and again--usually just for a few days and then they disappear again. I come and go as well. If there are some topics that I like to discuss I will hang around for a while. For example I posted a topic that I find interesting about animal sacrifice in the lds temples--but I have yet to have any lds respond to this. I hope some lds will respond to this one because I would like to hear what they have to say about this.

You know, I've encountered some hyper-Arminian Christians who would agree that there will be animal sacrifices in some future Third Temple. I, of course, objected - but was told that I must have a different God than the One in the bible!