Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?

andthe answer is:....the thing that is seen......
(Its seen clearly by the way)

And as we read the thing that is seen is the invisible nature of God.
That is the thing that is clearly seen in the things that are made.

Now I understand the phrase "the things that are made" to mean the universe.

This means that the very universe itself declares God's hand to men.
Now this fits with the verse that teaches that Jesus made all things......for here too i understand the "all things" to be also talking about the whole "universe".

So the Bible is in agreement with itself and how the universe not only is a finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that it also reflects this fact to men.

So men can learn about Jesus Christ by looking and listening to universe that we live within.


Thus when Billy asks us if all men have had a chance to hear about Jesus? the answer is "yes"

and THIS IS WHY > the Bible tells us that no person has an excuse........




But, Excuse for what? .....

ANSWER : for no person has an excuse for not believing in Jesus for the very universe itself that we live in declares to us about the Son.





And to sum it all up:

.....all this is part of God's plan!
Nothing here is an accident.
The universe does not accidentally reflect the Lord's hand.
The universe was designed by God to be able to bring all men to himself.

The universe is a way God draws all men to Himself.






and finally> all this was talked about in the Walter Martin video where he tells us that you are not sent to Hell because you never heard of Jesus.
Walter goes on to tell us that if you end up in Hell it is because you did not respond to the light from heaven you received.

The lesser light will lead you to the brighter light.

But lets keep in mind that the light is always the very same light. (Not two different lights)
The light we are talking about at all times is the Lord Jesus.
But the light can be dim at times due to our lives. (we only see a bit of the light)

And as we respond to even the dim light we see, it leads us to the brighter light.


This is why even Mormons in their temples can be reached with the true light of Christ , no matter their situation.
The light that the Mormon might be able to see dimly is still the same light I see as a Christian....
And if the Mormon responds to this light, then it will draw them out and into the brighter light of the Christian Faith.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?

My opinion is that if people do not know the name of Jesus, but sincerely call out to God for salvation, they will be saved through Jesus Christ. There is some Scripture backing this up. Otherwise we make salvation contingent upon intellectual knowledge and not a desire to be saved (which God places within the hearts of men).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So men can learn about Jesus Christ by looking and listening to universe that we live within.

Without scripture (direct revelation)--when a person looks at the universe what does that person learn about Christ? Be specific.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

". . .And to sum it all up:

.....all this is part of God's plan!
Nothing here is an accident.
The universe does not accidentally reflect the Lord's hand.
The universe was designed by God to be able to bring all men to himself.

The universe is a way God draws all men to Himself.. . ."

Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Alan can you relate what you have said above with what was written by Paul in Romans 3?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

My opinion is that if people do not know the name of Jesus, but sincerely call out to God for salvation, they will be saved through Jesus Christ. There is some Scripture backing this up. Otherwise we make salvation contingent upon intellectual knowledge and not a desire to be saved (which God places within the hearts of men).

Thank you, Apologette. I'm glad to hear that. That's exactly what I was thinking about the name...it has to be more than that, because even some people who know the name of Jesus and claim salvation through it, are possibly not saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thank you, Apologette. I'm glad to hear that. That's exactly what I was thinking about the name...it has to be more than that, because even some people who know the name of Jesus and claim salvation through it, are possibly not saved.

You made up a straw man argument again Libby. I never said that a person has to know the "name" of Jesus. Those in the OT knew about Jesus as the coming Messiah. It would be nice if you actually had a set of beliefs rather than changing your beliefs as the conversation develops.

Now perhaps you can answer my question. When you say "faith" in the true God, what exactly do you mean by faith? Does faith mean that you believe in a god--what exactly are you talking about?

[Billyray]

1. ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son
2. ALL men have not even heard about the true God let alone about the Son.

Libby you believe both 1 and 2 above. They are in conflict. Can you clarify your position?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Again you don't seem to know what I am asking you. When you say putting faith in the God of Abraham what do you mean by "faith"? For example do you mean faith = belief in a god?

Belief is the first step, yes...followed by faith and obedience.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son
2. ALL men have not even heard about the true God let alone about the Son.

Libby you believe both 1 and 2 above. They are in conflict. Can you clarify your position?

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Belief is the first step, yes...followed by faith and obedience.

But I am asking you what you mean exactly when you say "faith" in the only true God. Faith = What exactly? (knowledge, belief. . .???)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.

Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.

Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

You realize that your theory makes God's Sovereign Will dependent upon men's response?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You realize that your theory makes God's Sovereign Will dependent upon men's response?

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will. We certainly don't save ourselves. It is a gift. But, we do have to reach out and receive it. That does not in any way make God's gift of salvation dependent on us.

[Libby]

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

Originally Posted by Libby

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

If the creation is the Father drawing ALL men to the Son, can you tell me how many men have been drawn to the Son based on the creation?

Can you tell me what information you can gather about Christ looking exclusively at the creation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will.

They are mutually exclusive beliefs. Don't you see that?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Libby

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.

Actually I think we are just about getting somewhere with this Libby. I have already seen you change your position several times now--perhaps you are at least starting to solidify your beliefs a little bit here.

But I am still waiting for you to tell me what you mean when you say "faith" in the only true God. What exactly do you mean when you say "faith"? For example when you say faith in God does that mean that you believe in a god?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.

this is correct.....

well done!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will. We certainly don't save ourselves. It is a gift. But, we do have to reach out and receive it. That does not in any way make God's gift of salvation dependent on us.

This is correct and right on the money!


I dont know why i even bother to show up?, you got this topic nailed down.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

This is a very good answer.

the fact that the universe reflects the Lord's hand is not an accident.

the universe was designed to do this very thing.

But men dont always do the right thing...we dont always want to see what we should ...
but this does not mean the God stopped reaching out to all men....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."

I really like that.