Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God's word tells us that if we seek him we will find him.....
Thats all we need to worry about.

We can have faith in the fact that if any person seeks the Lord, they will not come away empty handed......


That is all anyone can ask....

You seem to have a hard time answering the question asked. That is being deceptive. Here is my question again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What does the verse say compared to what you think Libby says?

Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.

again...you seem concerned with what it does not teach.....and that is because?

I ask because i asked you what it does teach?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again...you seem concerned with what it does not teach.....and that is because?

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ. You have yet to show me a single text in the entire Bible that supports this belief and you have finally settled on trying to say that the creation itself--without any direct revelation i.e scriptures--draws ALL men to Christ. The length that you and Libby are going to try and support this false belief truly amazes me.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I ask because i asked you what it does teach?

And I have told you on multiple occasions now Alan. Would it help if I bold it for you?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ. You have yet to show me a single text in the entire Bible that supports this belief and you have finally settled on trying to say that the creation itself--without any direct revelation i.e scriptures--draws ALL men to Christ. The length that you and Libby are going to try and support this false belief truly amazes me.


And I have told you on multiple occasions now Alan. Would it help if I bold it for you?

blah, blah, blah....I asked you what the verse teaches.........

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ.

http://biblehub.com/john/12-32.htm






all men.........

Not a few...
Not a lucky elect...
Not a clique of the lucky.

but all men.....
All, regardless of their religion, their faith, their color and their nation.......

[alanmolstad]

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm



The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

What does the verse say about that again?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm



The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

What does the verse say about that again?

bump for billy.........

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

The Son came to earth and took on a body--The Father did not. The Son died on the cross--The Father did not. . .

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://biblehub.com/john/12-32.htm






all men.........

Not a few...
Not a lucky elect...
Not a clique of the lucky.

but all men.....
All, regardless of their religion, their faith, their color and their nation.......

The verse you gave me does NOT say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Does it Alan. In fact in John 6 we are shown that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ and Christ Himself gives several examples of this.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Son came to earth and took on a body--The Father did not. The Son died on the cross--The Father did not. . .

what does the text say?...while Jesus was in his body did he do even one small thing that he did not see the father also doing?.....

Dont worry, you can look it up

[alanmolstad]

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm




so while we might not understand how...the truth is that this verse clearly states something that is sure.....and without doubt...

The Son can do NOTHING apart from the father.....


not be born....not feed people....not raise the dead....not even die.....

[alanmolstad]

this means that when we read that the Son draws all people to himself that its actually the father that is drawing all men to himself.....though the son.

[alanmolstad]

this actually is the reason god sent his son into the world.

in Christ God was drawing all men to Himself.....

[alanmolstad]

you mean even the Lost are being drawn to God?.....yes

Even the unbeliever is being drawn to god?....yes, even they who have no faith in God at all, are at all times being drawn to god.....

Is it only by the things that are made that we are drawn?....NO, you cant say for sure what is the one thing that helps the most for a person to believe...Jesus said this when he talked about people "born of the spirit" being like the wind...we dont know where it came from or where it goes...

But there is no doubt in the text that the things that are made do proclaim the name of Jesus to the world of
men!~

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The verse you gave me does NOT say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Does it Alan. In fact in John 6 we are shown that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ and Christ Himself gives several examples of this.

(King James Bible)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.





http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm

Nothing about the life of Christ was without the father's design.......every move he made, each sentence he spoke was due to the father saying it..
For the truth is, we can know NOTHING abut the father except it is shown us in the Son.......

Thus when we read that the son draws all men to himself we can understand that the only reason Christ would be even able to do this is that the father is actually the one doing the real drawing of people to Himself.....






So in other words...If you want to see the father drawing all men to Himself just look at the Son drawing all men to himself.....

there you go!

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

(King James Bible)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

That's a Good Verse Right There.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by cheachea

That's a Good Verse Right There.

for some of us, yes....it is a good verse.

For others?...well, the sad truth is that a few people really want to skip over that verse, or try to make it meaningless.......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

for some of us, yes....it is a good verse.

For others?...well, the sad truth is that a few people really want to skip over that verse, or try to make it meaningless.......

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.


Alan could you answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So in other words...If you want to see the father drawing all men to Himself just look at the Son drawing all men to himself.....

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Those in verse 64 who did not believe were not enabled by the Father. If what you say is true that ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son why couldn't those in verse 64 come to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Those in verse 64 who did not believe were not enabled by the Father. If what you say is true that ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son why couldn't those in verse 64 come to Christ?

free will....

like the church bell that rings on Sunday morning....all.in the town hear the same bell...but not all get to church.....

[Libby]

You all have been very busy.

Cheachea, I love that verse, as well!

Alan, you have done a great *** of showing how all men are drawn, IMO.

Personally, I think this subject has been pretty well hashed over. We seem to be in "repeat" mode.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Those in verse 64 who did not believe were not enabled by the Father. If what you say is true that ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son why couldn't those in verse 64 come to Christ?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

free will....

like the church bell that rings on Sunday morning....all.in the town hear the same bell...but not all get to church.....

"Free will" Huh??

Those in verse 64 were unable to come to Christ because the Father did not enable them to do so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan, you have done a great *** of showing how all men are drawn, IMO.

Libby and how exactly has Alan shown that all men are drawn by the Father to Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby and how exactly has Alan shown that all men are drawn by the Father to Christ?

By quoting two simple verses.