Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

can any person be born and yet live in a universe that was not made by the Son and always reflect the Maker's hand?......let me know how......LOL

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan do you have an answer for me?

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see post #878

Here is post #878

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

All we need to do is seek God within our hearts and the Bible tells us that if we seek Him we shall find him......regardless of our situation at the time or place in the world...
We will find him!

This also is why the Bible teaches that the world that is made also teaches us about God....
And this fact is not by accident.
For God made all the things of this universe in such a manner as to be able to draw all men to Himself.

You didn't answer my question in post #878.

But I take it from our ongoing discussion that you believe that anyone can come to Christ without the Father drawing them to Christ.

Alan did I get that right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan you belief is not supported by any other Christian on this board. Do you realize that?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

James is gone......so who is this list of "others" you speak of?

Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"all people everwhere".........means ALL PEOPLE!.....EVERWHERE!

Perhaps you didn't notice the part that I bolded in you statement. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.

no really.
..who are these "others" on this board that you think I should be so afraid of disagreeing with?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Perhaps you didn't notice the part that I bolded in you statement. Can you explain what you mean by that?

it means.....

all

people

everwhere!

[Libby]

I think he was asking about the "overlooking ignorance" part. I was kind of wondering about that myself. Will have to look into that.

[Libby]

Billy, I wanted to ask you, again, about what the "drawing" verses mean to you, that you seem to believe we are missing?

You believe God draws only those whom he will save...right? Which is why you don't believe that all people are drawn..

But, the "drawing" verses don't really say that he draws only those whom he saves. I think that is implied by Calvinists.

[Libby]

Also..(for Billy)....what is your problem with the verse about Jesus doing only what the Father does? Explain to me how you think it is being misused, please..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, the "drawing" verses don't really say that he draws only those whom he saves.

That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Also..(for Billy)....what is your problem with the verse about Jesus doing only what the Father does? Explain to me how you think it is being misused, please..

Let's look at Alan's statement again.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Just look at Alan's statement and it should be obvious that what he has written was blatantly false. Do you believe that the Father was born, live (born), go to the bathroom. . .

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's look at Alan's statement again.

Just look at Alan's statement and it should be obvious that what he has written was blatantly false. Do you believe that the Father was born, live (born), go to the bathroom. . .

Okay, this first.

What does it mean to you, when Jesus says, "I can only do what I see the Father doing"...and "I and my Father are one"....AND..."If you know the Father, you know me"....??

What does the verse saying Christ draws all people to himself, mean to you? I know you probably answered this, already, but it's been awhile and I have forgotten.

Why are you making a separation between God the Father and Jesus, regarding that last verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, this first.

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

Okay. So, some do not believe. The reason they do not believe is because they have not been given, by the Father, to the Son.

But, does that, necessarily, mean they will never be given or drawn? No. On the other hand, perhaps they will never be "given", because they were just not ever going to believe.

Does the Father's "drawing", necessarily, equate to "giving" ? Drawing is simply enabling...but, some may still not believe. (Is how I'm looking at it)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

Let's look at what he said and see if what he said was true.

Was the Father born and did he take on a physical body?

Did the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)

What does this verse mean to you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's look at what he said and see if what he said was true.

Was the Father born and did he take on a physical body?

Did the Father die on the cross?

No, but that doesn't mean they were not still one in spirit. Surely you don't believe that they became totally separate, just because the Son became a man?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)

What does this verse mean to you?

I think it could mean...when Christ was taking on the sins of the world...the Father had to turn His back on Him....but, I know there are alternative views. It's difficult to imagine that could even be possible, since they are of Truine nature, which I would think, inseparable....they are, in essence, the same Being.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, but that doesn't mean they were not still one in spirit. Surely you don't believe that?

So basically you started off agreeing with what Alan said and you have finally come to your senses and realize that what he said was false. That is the problem with holding onto false ideas because you are then required to go to Bible and start to twist verses in order to try and come up with anything to support your position.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think it could mean...when Christ was taking on the sins of the world...the Father had to turn His back on Him....but, I know there are alternative views. It's difficult to imagine that could even be possible, since they are of Truine nature, which I would think, inseparable....they are, in essence, the same Being.

I am sure you realize this but what Alan is doing--and you are egging him on--is trying to twist the scriptures such that when it says that Christ says draw all men--this is really the Father saying it (to try and support his false belief that all men are drawn by the Father to the Son). But this is modalism and I would not be surprised if Alan is a modalist rather than a believer in the Trinity.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

. . . They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Can you comment on this verse and how it pertains to your views and Alan's views on this topic?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's look at Alan's statement again.

Just look at Alan's statement and it should be obvious that what he has written was blatantly false. Do you believe that the Father was born, live (born), go to the bathroom. . .

You got a problem with going to the bathroom now?......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Can you comment on this verse and how it pertains to your views and Alan's views on this topic?

so...Im the topic now?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he was asking about the "overlooking ignorance" part. I was kind of wondering about that myself. Will have to look into that.

Let look at what we know from the verse itself > We know one thing clearly....its answered in the request to "repent"

To repent is to "change ones mind....

Unless you have the ability to do this via Free Will the request is silly....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

Yes....every person ever born is "able".......unless they have a issue with being drunk, or under some type of mind control or stuff like that.
The Lost are able, this is taught in the verse that had Jesus weep over the same type of people, telling us that they "would not" come to him....

If the people were totally unable to come to Christ no matter what, then Jesus made a big fat error, and he should have said that the people "could not" come to him.

Could Not = unable
Would Not = uninterested.