Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So basically you started off agreeing with what Alan said and you have finally come to your senses and realize that what he said was false. That is the problem with holding onto false ideas because you are then required to go to Bible and start to twist verses in order to try and come up with anything to support your position.

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything. You keep asking, so called, "gotcha" questions, which are really not in the spirit of what Alan is trying to say. You keep getting bogged down in technicalities that don't relate to what he is saying. The fact that you think I am finally "coming to my senses", tells me that....because I still much more agree with the "spirit" of Alan's explanations, than I do with what it is you are desperately trying to "pin down".

This whole thing about not accepting that Christ "drawing all men" means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with Christ and the Father, somehow, being "separate persons"...which we all agree, they ARE. But, in SPIRIT they are always ONE. Yes, Christ became incarnate and did things the Father did not do, physically, but HE was right there with Jesus in SPIRIT. So, why are you trying to make something out of the verse that says very directly, Christ draws all people to himself? I think you are the one who is trying to "twist" scripture to your own beliefs.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this is true...Jesus never did anything apart from the will of the father......

Jesus cleary says, thsat by himself he could do "nothing"


so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!


can I get an "Amen"?

Amen, brother!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

First you don't have a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men--in fact John 6 alone refutes this idea. Second if you actually read the entire chapter of John 12 you wouldn't claim that the verse you are quoting is referring to individuals. But you don't want to know about the other verses because it doesn't support your false belief.

There are a lot of verses, like John 3:16, which indicate that God's sacrifice of His Son was intended for the whole world.

Billy, I just reread John 12. I think it is verses 37-41 that you would want to focus on to try and prove that God did not intend to draw all peoples.

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[i]
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

I think the same explanation applies here, as the one I gave earlier (the site I linked). Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God, even though they gave the appearance of following (they were following the law, but not with their hearts). They were not right with God. So, they didn't recognize the Messiah, when He came.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything. You keep asking, so called, "gotcha" questions, which are really not in the spirit of what Alan is trying to say.

My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself.

[disciple]

This really sounds like everyone has the choice to except the gift of eternal life.

“Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.’ Romans 2:4-11

[alanmolstad]

http://christianity.net.au/questions..._me_to_himself


again, I did a google search and this link was the very first one posted.

To quote the link -
"So to answer your question, God is drawing all people to himself through the cross of Jesus"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

. . .Billy, I just reread John 12. I think it is verses 37-41 that you would want to focus on to try and prove that God did not intend to draw all peoples.

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[i]
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

I think the same explanation applies here, as the one I gave earlier (the site I linked). Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God, even though they gave the appearance of following (they were following the law, but not with their hearts). They were not right with God. So, they didn't recognize the Messiah, when He came.

You wanted to discuss the verse in John 12 but in order to understand what he meant by his statement you have to read the verse in context of the surrounding verse of this chapter. But first since you already noticed one important section in the surrounding verses of this chapter lets focus on that first then we can go back and discuss the context of this chapter.


You said "Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God". In fact the majority did not follow God because if they had they would believe in the Messiah--which is Christ--and they rejected Christ. Now let's look at verse 37 which you quoted in your post and see what it says.

Joh 12:37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, [B]they still would not believe in him.

Here we have Jesus who had people following him and they witnessed many miracles and signs--BUT they still would not believe in him. Why?

John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

In this verse it says that they COULD NOT BELIEVE. Could not is different than would not. Could not is the inability to come to Christ--not just an unwillingness to do so. What reason is given why they COULD NOT BELEIVE?

John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”

Here we see that God "has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts" so they could not see and could not understand. They did not believe because they were blinded to the truth and were unable to come to Christ. So when Christ said all people and you believe that this means that every single individual was drawn to Christ how can this possibly be since those in 37-40 were not drawn to Christ but rather blinded to the truth and did not have the ability to come to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

Alan can you answer these questions for me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

Then you will not have a hard time answering the questions that I gave to Alan to answer.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan can you answer these questions for me.

sure, see post #954

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sure, see post #954

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

[alanmolstad]

sure...see post 954....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sure...see post 954....

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sure, see post #954

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

sure, see post #954

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sure, see post #954

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This whole thing about not accepting that Christ "drawing all men" means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with Christ and the Father, somehow, being "separate persons"...which we all agree, they ARE. But, in SPIRIT they are always ONE.

It does mean exactly what it says which is either all individuals OR all people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. So the question is which one does it mean exactly. So if you would like to discuss this we need to look at the context of the surrounding verses to see what message Jesus was trying to convey.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

sure, see post #954

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sure, see post #954

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You keep telling me that my views are unknown within the church...

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So when was the Father born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

[Gary_Biblelover]

Originally Posted by cheachea

That's a Good Verse Right There.

It sure is. I am going to quote it again, cuz it is so good:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Gary_Biblelover

It sure is. I am going to quote it again, cuz it is so good:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

And what do you think that this means? Individuals OR people groups--Jews and Gentiles?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So when was the Father born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

The Father wasn't born, nor did he die on the cross...but, he was right there with Jesus, in Spirit.

Do you really think Christ's drawing all men is any different from what the Father is doing? How so? I wish you would tell us more about your own beliefs and why.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It does mean exactly what it says which is either all individuals OR all people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. So the question is which one does it mean exactly. So if you would like to discuss this we need to look at the context of the surrounding verses to see what message Jesus was trying to convey.

I'm going to read it in context, but before I do that, I think you are going to say it means he will draw all "groups" of people, both Gentiles, as well as Jews. Not all "individuals".

[Libby]

Actually, I read this last night.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You wanted to discuss the verse in John 12 but in order to understand what he meant by his statement you have to read the verse in context of the surrounding verse of this chapter. But first since you already noticed one important section in the surrounding verses of this chapter lets focus on that first then we can go back and discuss the context of this chapter.


You said "Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God". In fact the majority did not follow God because if they had they would believe in the Messiah--which is Christ--and they rejected Christ. Now let's look at verse 37 which you quoted in your post and see what it says.


Here we have Jesus who had people following him and they witnessed many miracles and signs--BUT they still would not believe in him. Why?

In this verse it says that they COULD NOT BELIEVE. Could not is different than would not. Could not is the inability to come to Christ--not just an unwillingness to do so. What reason is given why they COULD NOT BELEIVE?

Here we see that God "has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts" so they could not see and could not understand. They did not believe because they were blinded to the truth and were unable to come to Christ. So when Christ said all people and you believe that this means that every single individual was drawn to Christ how can this possibly be since those in 37-40 were not drawn to Christ but rather blinded to the truth and did not have the ability to come to Christ.

Either I didn't see this or I had forgotten about it. We need to talk about this.

I think it will have to wait, though. I'm having trouble with my eyes, tonight. Had a procedure done on them today, so I can't really read very well, at the moment.