Free Will

[alanmolstad]

My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."

[alanmolstad]

When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In order to understand the intended meaning of a sentence or phrase you need to understand the context of discussion. We do this all of the time in everyday life--in order to understand the meaning of a sentence you need to listen to discussion on both sides of that sentence to see how it fits into what was said. So let's look at the surrounding verses and see if we can figure out the setting that this verse comes up. Let's start with John 12

This is at the end of Jesus' public ministry and on Palm Sunday He presents Himself as the Jewish Messiah riding in on a donkey from the Mount of Olives down through the garden of gethsemane then up towards the east side of the Temple. A couple things that we see in this section of the scripture is that this is all about the Jew and their Messiah presenting himself to them and in doing so He fulfills multiple prophecies of the coming Messiah. In this chapter alone--up to this point--Jesus has raised Lazarus from the dead followed by Jesus fulfilling multiple prophecies that point to their own Messiah. Some believed--but the majority did not. Jesus up to this point was sent to the Jews as their Messiah and His message has not been sent out to the Gentiles. The Jews themselves believed that their Messiah was sent them and them alone and certainly not for the lowly Gentiles.

I understand all of that, Billy. I don't see how this supports your position, at all. The verse still reads that he (Jesus) will draw all people to himself. Yes, he is including Gentiles and the whole world. Not just Jews. What is the "difference" that you are trying to outline? "All people" means all kinds of people...yes. Why can that not also mean every individual? It can mean BOTH.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."

This is an excellent post, Alan.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....

Alan I never said anything about Jesus drawing us physically. You just set up a straw man argument. In the verse in John 12 it says that Jesus WILL draw when he is lifted up. So using this verse none are drawn by Jesus until that point.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is an excellent post, Alan.

thanks Libby!

I may have to start a website one day on how Free Will works within God's sovereignty ....LOL

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

thanks Libby!

I may have to start a website one day on how Free Will works within God's sovereignty ....LOL

Do you have a blog?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I understand all of that, Billy. I don't see how this supports your position, at all. The verse still reads that he (Jesus) will draw all people to himself. Yes, he is including Gentiles and the whole world. Not just Jews. What is the "difference" that you are trying to outline? "All people" means all kinds of people...yes. Why can that not also mean every individual? It can mean BOTH.

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

First off the verse says that he draws after he is lifted up which means that he didn't draw--either individuals as you and Alan believe OR certain people groups such as the Gentiles--prior to him being lifted up on the cross. Now look at the quote from the ESV study Bible that I gave you in my post and see if John 12:32 is more consistent with your position or mine.

ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is an excellent post, Alan.

What part do you think is "excellent"? His false ***ertions or his straw man argument?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you have a blog?

an interesting idea......

but who has ther time in the summer?

winter here in North Dakota gives a guy a bit of free time...summer is too short to not be outside

[alanmolstad]

by the way Libby.....because the topic came up here my wife and I are studying the Jewish p***over websites to learn some of the things we may have misssed

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

First off the verse says that he draws after he is lifted up which means that he didn't draw--either individuals as you and Alan believe OR certain people groups such as the Gentiles--prior to him being lifted up on the cross. Now look at the quote from the ESV study Bible that I gave you in my post and see if John 12:32 is more consistent with your position or mine.

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw....so, I went to my Reformation Study Bible (which it seems, has slightly different footnotes than the ones you are providing). So, you must be using a different version. ESV is a pretty standard Calvinist Bible, though.

Under 12:32 (will draw all people), this is what it says:

"The cross exerts a universal attraction, and peoples of all nationalities, Gentiles as well as Jews, will be saved through it. "All" means all kinds of people without distinction, not all members of the human race without exception."

This is exactly what I already knew, Calvinists believe, and was trying to get you to draw that line, yourself, but you don't seem to like to talk very plainly about this.

I see absolutely no good reason, why the verse should be interpreted that way. It had to be, to fit in with the Calvinist view, of course, but I see no other "real" reason to interpret it that way.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

by the way Libby.....because the topic came up here my wife and I are studying the Jewish p***over websites to learn some of the things we may have misssed

Cool! I was looking at some Seder websites, as well, last night, because I was only 19, when I attended that Seder...and let me tell you, that was a LONG time ago! ;-)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com

Originally Posted by Libby

I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw..

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people" according to this verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw....

I don't think you even bothered to read what I posted.

ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

Can you tell me what the ESV Study Bible says with respect to this section of scripture?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

So, you must be using a different version. ESV is a pretty standard Calvinist Bible, though.

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV

I wasn't talking about wording within the scriptures, themselves. I was talking about interpretations in the footnotes/study notes.

The notes I cited were from an ESV Reformation Study Bible (as I mentioned).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think you even bothered to read what I posted.

Read every word. Perhaps, I missed something?

Can you tell me what the ESV Study Bible says with respect to this section of scripture?

This?

The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Read every word. Perhaps, I missed something?

Since you said you read every word can you tell me what points that I made and can you respond to those points?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV

Originally Posted by Libby

I wasn't talking about wording within the scriptures, themselves. I was talking about interpretations in the footnotes/study notes.

All of the verses--in the different translations--are written in English--a language that you and I both know. Certainly you can read it and tell me what it says.


And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people"?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

All of the verses--in the different translations--are written in English--a language that you and I both know. Certainly you can read it and tell me what it says.


And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people"?

When he is lifted up from the earth.

I'm not sure why you are pointing this out. Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.

I'm sorry, Billy, I'm probably being slow, but I don't really understand what you are trying to point out. Could you be more specific, please?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

When he is lifted up from the earth.

According to this verse did Christ draw all men to Himself prior to being lifted up?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm not sure why you are pointing this out. Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.

Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

W
I'm sorry, Billy, I'm probably being slow, but I don't really understand what you are trying to point out. Could you be more specific, please?

The exact verse that you and Alan are using to try and prove that all men are drawn to Christ--proves the opposite because according to John 12:32 Christ did not draw all people to Himself until after He went to the cross.

In context with the surrounding verses "all people" is referring to all people groups not individuals. Jesus' ministry was to the Jews while he was on the earth--and not to the Gentiles. After His death the gospel went forth to the Gentiles. All people indicated that it wasn't restricted to the Jews only--even though the unbelieving Jews still believed this.

[Billyray]

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Now let's look at the verses that follow John 12:32. If all people meant every single individual that ever lived--why follow that verse with verses 39-40 which says that God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--"therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE? If your point of view is correct the same exact people that God is drawing He is also blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts. This makes no sense at all.

If all people means all people groups this makes perfect sense in context to the rest of John 12 because during Christ's earthly ministry his message was aimed specifically to the Jews. But after the cross this spread to all the other people groups--i.e. the Gentiles. These are the "other sheep that are of this fold" that Jesus was speaking about.