Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I used to see it your way, Billy. It just doesn't make sense to me, that way. I really started falling away, because of it. Is that one of those "hard sayings" that the Bible talks about? I hope not.

The Bible has a lot of things that maybe hard to understand from out perspective and because of this some people reject parts of the Bible or the entire Bible outright because it doesn't line up with what they think God should do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if God needed to take away my Free Will just to carry out His plans for me in my life, He would not be much of a god.....

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible has a lot of things that maybe hard to understand from out perspective and because of this some people reject parts of the Bible or the entire Bible outright because it doesn't line up with what they think God should do.

Yeah, that's true.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

check out 3:30 of the video for your answers...

So you can't answer on your own, but have to go to a third-rate preacher instead. . .

I checked out 3:30 of the video. He DID NOT RESPOND to the last half of the sentence, but gave speculative reasoning to disbelieve what the first half said.

He left out the part that says: " for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them. . ." He CLAIMED they COULD perceive, but CHOSE NOT TO. Since when CAN you believe something that is foolishness to you and that you do not understand?

Sorry but your own video shows your pathetic inability to make your point.

In Jesus,
morefish

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Arminianism: Your name is penciled in the Book of Life!

But ONLY until you mess up and sin. . .THEN it is erased with the erasure end of the pencil. . .

According to the Arminians anyway. . .

IN the Name of J

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Christian

But ONLY until you mess up and sin. . .THEN it is erased with the erasure end of the pencil. . .

According to the Arminians anyway. . .

IN the Name of J

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

I think this is true for most Christian teachings. In that sense, there is no security. Same thing in Mormonism, actually.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

I think this is true for most Christian teachings. In that sense, there is no security. Same thing in Mormonism, actually.

Logic says, if we had to endure to the end as the same as anyone who was not washed in the Blood of the Lamb, then why bother getting washed? Logic, aint it wonderful

[Libby]

Huh?

................

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

Well, I had to look it up, but I did know it was in there.

Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

[alanmolstad]

Libby...Im working out of town, so send me a PM if you run into something that you think I would find interesting....or funny

[Libby]

Also....

2 Timothy 2:12

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Libby...Im working out of town, so send me a PM if you run into something that you think I would find interesting....or funny

Will do.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Libby

Also....

2 Timothy 2:12

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

If we could lose our salvation, we would. Let's not forget it is Jesus who bought us and keeps us.


“Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.” Jude 24-25

[Libby]

Let's not forget it is Jesus who bought us and keeps us.

Amen, disciple.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I had to look it up, but I did know it was in there.

Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I was thinking about the verse in 1 John 2:19

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

[alanmolstad]

Amen, disciple.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I was thinking about the verse in 1 John 2:19

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Yes, that one too. It could also infer or reflect a Calvinist view of election.

The verses about "enduring to the end" are often used by LDS.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

girls get raped all the time...God does not interfere....

its a simple fact....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

girls get raped all the time...God does not interfere....

its a simple fact....

So your position would be that God does not answer prayer because by doing so it would interfere with another person's free will?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, that one too. It could also infer or reflect a Calvinist view of election.

The verses about "enduring to the end" are often used by LDS.

Here is a snippet from gotquestion.org on perseverance of the Saints

Question: "Perseverance of the Saints - is it biblical?"

". . . The simplest explanation of this doctrine is the saying: “Once saved, always saved.” The Bible teaches that those who are born again will continue trusting in Christ forever. God, by His own power through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, keeps or preserves the believer forever. This wonderful truth is seen in Ephesians 1:13-14, where we see that believers are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession, to the praise of His glory.” When we are born again, we receive the promised indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that is God’s guarantee that He who began a good work in us will complete it (Philippians 1:6). In order for us to lose our salvation after receiving the promised Holy Spirit, God would have to break His promise or renege on His “guarantee,” which He cannot do. Therefore, the believer is eternally secure because God is eternally faithful.

The understanding of this doctrine really comes from understanding the unique and special love that God has for His children. Romans 8:28-39 tells us that 1) no one can bring a charge against God’s elect; 2) nothing can separate the elect from the love of Christ; 3) God makes everything work together for the good of the elect; and 4) all whom God saves will be glorified. God loves His children (the elect) so much that nothing can separate them from Him. Of course this same truth is seen in many other p***ages of Scripture as well. In John 10:27-30, Jesus says, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again, in John 6:37-47, we see Jesus stating that everyone that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him and He will raise all of them up at the last day.

Another evidence from Scripture of the eternal security of a believer is found in John 5:24, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has p***ed out of death into life.” Notice that eternal life is not something we get in the future but is something that we have once we believe. By its very nature, eternal life must last forever, or it could not be eternal. This p***age says that, if we believe the gospel, we have eternal life and will not come into judgment; therefore, it can be said we are eternally secure.

There is really very little scriptural basis that can be used to argue against the eternal security of the believer. While there are a few verses that, if not considered in their context, might give the impression that one could “fall from grace” or lose his salvation, when these verses are carefully considered in context it is clear that is not the case. Many people know someone who at one time expressed faith in Christ and who might have appeared to be a genuine Christian who later departed from the faith and now wants to have nothing to do with Christ or His church. These people might even deny the very existence of God. For those who do not want to accept what the Bible says about the security of the believer, these types of people are proof that the doctrine of eternal security cannot be right. However, the Bible indicates otherwise, and it teaches that people such as those who profess Christ as Savior at one time only to later walk away and deny Christ were never truly saved in the first place. For example, 1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out from us, in order that it might be made manifest that they all are not truly of us." The Bible is also clear that not everyone who professes to be a Christian truly is. Jesus Himself says that not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-22). Rather than proving we can lose our salvation, those people who profess Christ and fall away simply reinforces the importance of testing our salvation to make sure we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) and making our calling and election sure by continually examining our lives to make sure we are growing in godliness (2 Peter 1:10). . ."


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/persever...#ixzz33vTzdvAi

[Libby]

Thanks, Billy....yes, I'm familiar with all of that.

I'm not sure about perseverance of the saints (the P in TULIP). Again, it seems to make God responsible for whether or not we fall away. I agree some of those verses do say that Christ keeps us, through the Holy Spirit, but we can turn from that and lose sight, for a time, and come back. Doesn't that show that we have some responsibility in "persevering"? And, in "examining" ourselves, to make sure we are still in the faith?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your position would be that God does not answer prayer because by doing so it would interfere with another person's free will?

im saying that no matter how hard you pray and ask God to take away the Free Will of bad people the answer to your prayer will always be...."no"

[alanmolstad]

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?