Free Will

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh

God did not allow Abimelek to touch Sarah

Originally Posted by Billyray

Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelek

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar,
2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.”
4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation?
5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh

Nope...you better check the story out .....God never needed to take away the free will of anyone.......even Pharaoh.

If your god needs to do that to people just to be able to perform his will in our lives he would not be a type of god worth worshiping.....



for more information, I found this for you to study
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...1&article=1205

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God did not allow Abimelek to touch Sarah

oh yes....But remember the guy always had free will and this is the reason God sent the guy a dream and warned him that if he slept with the lady he would die....

so this is the lesson we learn here...that God did not have to take away the guy's free will to yet work in his life....
The guy always had free will...and it was a dream that God sent that warned him.....and because he was warned he acted correctly....all according to his free will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?

You just make up the most crazy **** out of thin air.......its getting to the point that none of the posts by Billy are worth the time to read....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

oh yes....But remember the guy always had free will and this is the reason God sent the guy a dream and warned him that if he slept with the lady he would die....

so this is the lesson we learn here...that God did not have to take away the guy's free will to yet work in his life....
The guy always had free will...and it was a dream that God sent that warned him.....and because he was warned he acted correctly....all according to his free will

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

He could have, but then he would have died. Why would God warn him or bother to give a penalty, if Abimelek was completely "unable" to touch Sarah?

Same with Pharaoh. His heart was hardened only after he sinned numerous times against The Lord. Constant unrepentant sin will create a hard heart.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You just make up the most crazy **** out of thin air.......its getting to the point that none of the posts by Billy are worth the time to read....

From what you have said about free will this is the only conclusion one could make. If God takes an active role in shaping future events this would interfere with man's free will and you have said that God would never interfere with man's free will. So your position must be that God has no control on what happens on earth because intervention in our actions would limit our free will? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree can you tell me why?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

That was the reason God sent him the dream....

The dream, and the warning prove my point....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He could have, but then he would have died.

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.

But what does the verse say? Did God keep him from touching her?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.

But what does the verse say? Did God keep him from touching her?

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

Why did God bother giving a penalty, Billy?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That was the reason God sent him the dream....

The dream, and the warning prove my point....

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

So Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to because he has complete free will. Agree?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

From what you have said about free will this is the only conclusion one could make. If God takes an active role in shaping future events this would interfere with man's free will and you have said that God would never interfere with man's free will. So your position must be that God has no control on what happens on earth because intervention in our actions would limit our free will? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree can you tell me why?

Your views are not worth reading anymore....
You ***ign people things you want them to say in order to set you up with a strong counter arguement....

But the problem is that no one thinks the way you wish they would.....so your great arguement that you were all set to make just flops limp in the wind.......


Billy, I have posted enough on this one topic alone to fill a book on "How Free Will works WITH god's sovereignty"


Why dont you ask me about the things I have said, rather than building a straw-man with what you wished I would have said....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

Why did God bother giving a penalty, Billy?

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

What was the penalty for according to verse 7?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Your views are not worth reading anymore....
You ***ign people things you want them to say in order to set you up with a strong counter arguement....

But the problem is that no one thinks the way you wish they would.....so your great arguement that you were all set to make just flops limp in the wind.......


Billy, I have posted enough on this one topic alone to fill a book on "How Free Will works WITH god's sovereignty"


Why dont you ask me about the things I have said, rather than building a straw-man with what you wished I would have said....

Your views on free will is that man can do anything he wants whenever he wants. If this is the case then who is in control of this world? Man or God?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And your answer to my question is what?

The reason God sent the dream was to "warn" the guy .....the reason for the warning is that the guy was in danger of doing something wrong.....the reason for this is that the guy always has his free will.....

So because the guy has free will he makes a decision to bring the lady into his house.
God wants to warn the guy, so God sends him a dream to warn him that he will die if he sleeps with the lady.

So the guy never, ever,ever for even the slightest second had his free will taken away from him.....But God still was able to perform his will for the guy no matter.

Thats what you clearly are clue-free about in this topic...
The fact that God is not so weak that he has to handcuff people and take away their Free Will just to be able to do things according to His will in their lives.

God is NOT that weak!
God does not need to take away our Free Will just to be able to performs works in our lives....


I teach that Man has Free Will "and" God is sovereign.

You feel in need of replacing the word "and" with the word "or".......but this results in a weak god that is not worth worshiping and is a joke compared to the God I worship and serve.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

You use "foreknowledge" as a defense a lot but the way you use it doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you believe that God's foreknowledge is different than what actually happens? Perhaps you can explain to me how you see foreknowledge?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The reason God sent the dream was to "warn" the guy .....the reason for the warning is that the guy was in danger of doing something wrong.....the reason for this is that the guy always has his free will.....

So because the guy has free will he makes a decision.
God wants to warn the guy, so God sends him a dream to warn him that he will die if he sleeps with the lady.

So the guy never, ever,ever for even the slightest second had his free will taken away from him.....But God still was able to perform his will for the guy no matter.

Thats what you clearly are clue-free about in this topic...
The fact that God is not so weak that he has to handcuff people and take away their Free Will just to be able to do things according to His will in their lives.

God is NOT that weak!
God does not need to take away our Free Will just to be able to performs works in our lives....


I teach that Man has Free Will "and" God is sovereign.

You feel in need of replacing the word "and" with the word "or".......but this results in a weak god that is not worth worshiping and is a joke compared to the God I worship and serve.

And you believe that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since he has free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Right?

BTW if God shapes human behavior to the outcome that he wants it to be are you still calling this free will?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”
?

see the "if"?

The if is what I am talking about.....the "if" means the guy could yet do the wrong thing and end up in a lot of trouble....

the "if" is the reason God sent the dream to warn him.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And you believe that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since he has free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Right?

God seemed to think so....LOL

God sent the warning to let the guy know that "if' he slept with the lady he would die......

So he had to decide what he believe would happen.....and he decided to believe the dream and the warning....and thus he lived


He never had his free will taken from him, even for a second!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your views on free will is that man can do anything he wants whenever he wants. If this is the case then who is in control of this world? Man or God?

No...my view is and has always been what the Bible teaches...

That man has Free Will......AND.....God is sovereign

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see the "if"?

The if is what I am talking about.....the "if" means the guy could yet do the wrong thing and end up in a lot of trouble....

the "if" is the reason God sent the dream to warn him.....

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

The penalty was for not returning her to Abraham. This is AFTER God prevented him from touching her.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No...my view is and has always been what the Bible teaches...

That man has Free Will......AND.....God is sovereign

The Bible doesn't teach that man has free will but it does teach that God is sovereign so you are half right. Perhaps you will eventually get it entirely correct some day. What you are saying in your quote above is: That man is sovereign ......AND.....God is sovereign. This statement is in conflict and can't be true. But you don't seem to see it. At least yet.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God seemed to think so....LOL

God didn't seem to think so that is why he had to prevent him from touching her. Read the verse again Alan.

[Billyray]

Alan if you believe in free will then you should have no trouble giving me a yes or no answer to the following question.

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?