Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

The penalty was for not returning her to Abraham. This is AFTER God prevented him from touching her.

I think we all know why he had her in his house....LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What you are saying in your quote above is:.........

there you go again......you need invent things for people to say because you cant handle the real things people like me say that prove you wrong.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan if you believe in free will then you should have no trouble giving me a yes or no answer to the following question.

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"


If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"


If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"

If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.

Like it says in John 12?

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

What was the penalty for according to verse 7?

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah. He also prevented any of his other wives from becoming pregnant and would not change this until King Abimelek gave Sarah back to Abraham and made amends.

I don't deny that God sometimes "acts" sovereignly. Really, my main point, throughout this thread, has been in regards to salvation. The idea of God picking and choosing for salvation, rather than having us freely respond to his drawing.

We, obviously, do not have complete and unfettered free will (that is difficult to defend, Biblically), which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.

[alanmolstad]

there is nothing to stop God from doing work in our lives...
God is not so weak that he needs to strip man of his free will before God can carry out his will in our lives....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

lets do a test....

Right now i sitting in a chair....but in a moment I believe I will "want" to put a foot on the floor..

Do I have the Free Will that will allow me to put my foot on the floor?..."tap" ...looks like I do!

Case-Closed!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.

I dont know why its so hard for poor Billy to understand...God also has free will,,,God does what he wants....God does not need to rob us of our Free Will just to perform some act in our lives...

What a weak god it would be to worship if to do something in our lives our god had to first strip us of our free will.....

I would NEVER worship such a false god!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah.

Yes!

Just as I get my kids to clean their rooms.
I dont take away their free will, but I do give them a "warning".......and at that point they face a choice as to how they will respond.

All this works hand in hand with the concept of man's free will and God's sovereignty

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"





If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.

would not = Free Will

could not = no free will

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

would not = Free Will

could not = no free will

Would not-FreeWill could not-free will.

Will you two call it tie?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Would not-FreeWill could not-free will.

Will you two call it tie?

What fun would that be?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

What fun would that be?

Maybe one has the free will to do it, but the other one doesn't, but which is which?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah. He also prevented any of his other wives from becoming pregnant and would not change this until King Abimelek gave Sarah back to Abraham and made amends.

I don't deny that God sometimes "acts" sovereignly. Really, my main point, throughout this thread, has been in regards to salvation. The idea of God picking and choosing for salvation, rather than having us freely respond to his drawing.

We, obviously, do not have complete and unfettered free will (that is difficult to defend, Biblically), which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.

If man had free will then he could do anything he wanted whenever he wanted to to it. I have asked Alan if he agrees or disagrees with this and he won't give me a straight answer. If he truly believed in free will then he would have no problem saying that man did indeed have the free will to do want he wanted to do whenever he wanted to do it--but he won't give me an answer.

[alanmolstad]

remember the example I gave of a p***enger on a great ship......

The freedom the p***enger enjoys come forth out of the command of the Skipper over his ship....
Before the p***enger can enjoy such freedoms, the Skipper has to be in total control of the ship at all times.


This is also how human Free Will works within the Sovereignty of God over His creation....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If man had free will then he could do anything he wanted whenever he wanted to to it. I have asked Alan if he agrees or disagrees with this and he won't give me a straight answer. If he truly believed in free will then he would have no problem saying that man did indeed have the free will to do want he wanted to do whenever he wanted to do it--but he won't give me an answer.

I think he has given you an answer. He, probably, just hasn't justified it, enough, to your liking.

It seems like we do have free will, for the most part. We are, actually, free to do most anything we want, by all appearances. That doesn't mean that God doesn't intervene in our lives, at times, to answer prayers and arrange things, according to His will.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

remember the example I gave of a p***enger on a great ship......

The freedom the p***enger enjoys come forth out of the command of the Skipper over his ship....
Before the p***enger can enjoy such freedoms, the Skipper has to be in total control of the ship at all times.


This is also how human Free Will works within the Sovereignty of God over His creation....

Yes, I like that example. That's a good one.

[John T]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I like that example. That's a good one.

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".

well said!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by John T

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".

Yes, you are probably right about that, John. I keep saying I need to lay this down...and then come back here and get caught up in it, again. Somehow, the two are compatible...only God knows.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he has given you an answer.

So Alan's position is that "man can do anything he wants whenever he wants to"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by John T

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

We certainly make choices and we are responsible for those choices. But if you believe that a person has complete free will then you are making man sovereign NOT God. Out of curiosity what verses are you using that says that man has complete free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So Alan's position is that "man can do anything he wants whenever he wants to"

I think his position is a little more refined and defined than that, Billy.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think his position is a little more refined and defined than that, Billy.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

Then you are saying that Alan doesn't believe in free will?