Bible alone?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Right, just as the Bible teaches. Who will not be resurrected in Protestantism?


Did someone suggest that they were?

In biblical teachings, the wicked will be resurrected to ****ation and the righteous to eternal life.

The point is that resurrection is NOT salvation.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Is that where you got your claim that "You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people."?

No, Sir, that came from experience.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Grandma

In biblical teachings, the wicked will be resurrected to ****ation and the righteous to eternal life.

The point is that resurrection is NOT salvation.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Very good answer!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Mormons believe parts of the Bible, do they not? Do they believe there are requirements for eternal life that are not in the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

Grandma

That has nothing to do with my comment...

Is being found with Love a requirement of salvation or not, according to yoir beliefs?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

That has nothing to do with my comment...

Is being found with Love a requirement of salvation or not, according to yoir beliefs?

It's a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 John 2:9
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

It's a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 John 2:9
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

In Chtistian Love,

Grandma

That does not answer my question!

Whether or not love happens before or after you have declared a person saved, is not germane to your answering me.

I asked: Is having love in your heart a requirement of salvation or not?

Simply spouting pla***udes, and posting scriptures without posting your interpretation of them is meaningless and a waste of time for everyone. It only serves you in allowing you to avoid the contradictions and paradoxes of your heresies. I have asked you more than once to explain how the scriptures you posted support your case, you have refused. Therefore I am left to ***ume that you do not even understand their meaning and their message. You simply randomly post scripture that in some cases actually argue against you.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

That does not answer my question!

Whether or not love happens before or after you have declared a person saved, is not germane to your answering me.

I asked: Is having love in your heart a requirement of salvation or not?

Simply spouting pla***udes, and posting scriptures without posting your interpretation of them is meaningless and a waste of time for everyone. It only serves you in allowing you to avoid the contradictions and paradoxes of your heresies. I have asked you more than once to explain how the scriptures you posted support your case, you have refused. Therefore I am left to ***ume that you do not even understand their meaning and their message. You simply randomly post scripture that in some cases actually argue against you.

Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

One of the better posts we have seen left on this forum in a very long time.

Im happy to be able to reprint it here for all to enjoy!

Originally Posted by Grandma

Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Again, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Again, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

Love is not a requirement for salvation it is the result of salvation. Read Ephesians 2:1-5 and realize what we are before we are saved.

"And you He made alive, who were dead in tresp***es and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

Love is not a requirement for salvation it is the result of salvation. Read Ephesians 2:1-5 and realize what we are before we are saved

If love has nothing to do with our salvation, then bringing it up during a debate about the requirements for salvation is an obvious diversionary ploy.

Thanks for admitting to that on Grandma's behalf.

But it then begs the question!
If love is not a requirement of salvation, and since loving God and loving our fellow men are the greatest commandments of God.... Then it stands to reason that you believe one does not have to obey ANY commandments of God to be saved.
And given that sin is disobeying God's commandments, then you must also believe that one can sin all they want and still be saved???

Would this not be an accurate ***esment of your beliefs?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

If love has nothing to do with our salvation, then bringing it up during a debate about the requirements for salvation is an obvious diversionary ploy.

Thanks for admitting to that on Grandma's behalf.

But it then begs the question!
If love is not a requirement of salvation, and since loving God and loving our fellow men are the greatest commandments of God.... Then it stands to reason that you believe one does not have to obey ANY commandments of God to be saved.
And given that sin is disobeying God's commandments, then you must also believe that one can sin all they want and still be saved???

Would this not be an accurate ***esment of your beliefs?

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.
Also I am not answering for Grandma, she is doing very well without any help.

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.
Also I am not answering for Grandma, she is doing very well without any help.

Your above reply is just a lot of "word soup" to divert people's attention away from the fact that you actually agree with me.
If I am confused, then please show which one of my conclusions were wrong?

1. You said you believe that love is not a requirement of salvation.
2. You believe keeping the commandments of God is not a requirement of salvation either.
3. Likewise, you believe a person can sin all they want as the amount and degree of one's sins (either before or after you you are saved) has no bearing on one's salvation.


Ironically, you are hoping people will be confused so that they don't realize the silliness of Faith Alone theology.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Again, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

You sure are having a lot of trouble understanding some very simple answers to your question. I'm so sorry if you sincerely don't understand my posts and/or the Bible verses I posted in KJV and NIV.

It looks like other people understand my answers completely.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Your above reply is just a lot of "word soup" to divert people's attention away from the fact that you actually agree with me.
If I am confused, then please show which one of my conclusions were wrong?

1. You said you believe that love is not a requirement of salvation.
2. You believe keeping the commandments of God is not a requirement of salvation either.
3. Likewise, you believe a person can sin all they want as the amount and degree of one's sins (either before or after you you are saved) has no bearing on one's salvation.


Ironically, you are hoping people will be confused so that they don't realize it.

Christians are not walking in the darkness that unbelievers are. We HATE sin! We want to obey the commandments. I'm sure you've seen that all over the internet and apparently came here to twist every answer that Christians give you. I speak to you in love. Can you respond in love?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

You sure are having a lot of trouble understanding some very simple answers to your question. I'm so sorry if you sincerely don't understand my posts and/or the Bible verses I posted in KJV and NIV.

It looks like other people understand my answers completely.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

I have absolutely no problem understanding a Yes or No answer. I believe this is why you have refused to give one.
Likewise, whenever I ask you to clarify your ***ertions and the meaning of the scriptures YOU YOUSELF POSTED. You have flat out refused to do so.
Do you see the pattern everyone else does? You can not answer simply questions or explain yourself without contradicting yourself, or creating impossible paradoxes.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by disciple

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.

Amen! Beautiful and truthful!

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

I have absolutely no problem understanding a Yes or No answer. I believe this is why you have refused to give one.
Likewise, whenever I ask you to clarify your ***ertions and the meaning of the scriptures YOU YOUSELF POSTED. You have flat out refused to do so.
Do you see the pattern everyone else does? You can not answer simply questions or explain yourself without contradicting yourself, or creating impossible paradoxes.

No, I answered you so plainly that others can see my answer.

The requirement for salvation is faith/the new birth. It is a gift of God Who gives us saving faith that produces the works He ordained. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I'm sorry that you're objecting to biblical answers.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Christians are not walking in the darkness that unbelievers are. We HATE sin! We want to obey the commandments. I'm sure you've seen that all over the internet and apparently came here to twist every answer that Christians give you. I speak to you in love. Can you respond in love?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Whether Christians walk in darkness or not, is not germane to the answer to my question.
The fact that you hate sin is just a meaningless pla***ude and does not answer my question.
The fact that you WANT to obey God's commandments has nothing to do with whether it is a requirement of salvation, and is yet another useless pla***ude.
What I personally have seen all over the Internet is anecdotal and has nothing to do with anything.
Whether I respond in love or not, will not change whether something is true or not.

The answer I am looking for you to tell me, is which one of my conclusions was wrong.

If you don't like that question, then feel free to actually answer any of the others I have asked of you.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

No, I answered you so plainly that others can see my answer.

The requirement for salvation is faith/the new birth. It is a gift of God Who gives us saving faith that produces the works He ordained. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I'm sorry that you're objecting to biblical answers.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by theway

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

I'm not a Calvinist so my take on it is that God knows who would be saved because He knows the end from the beginning but that people still have to choose.
God gives everyone a measure of faith but that faith has to be placed in the true Lord Jesus.
Everyone's name is written in the lamb's book of life and then there are reasons that we can get blotted out. We get blotted out for rejecting the real Jesus Christ. There is no neutrality with God so to be neutral is to reject Jesus.
Did you ever watch "To Tell the Truth"? Will the real Jesus please stand up.

I don't believe Calvinism and if you were to survey people today, some people are a three point Calvinist and others are a four point Calvinist because they don't believe everything sold to them in Calvinism and our Bible college up here doesn't believe in Calvinism. I was reading a book that plainly states that both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

[theway]

Originally Posted by chuckt

I'm not a Calvinist so my take on it is that God knows who would be saved because He knows the end from the beginning but that people still have to choose.
God gives everyone a measure of faith but that faith has to be placed in the true Lord Jesus.
Everyone's name is written in the lamb's book of life and then there are reasons that we can get blotted out. We get blotted out for rejecting the real Jesus Christ. There is no neutrality with God so to be neutral is to reject Jesus.
Did you ever watch "To Tell the Truth"? Will the real Jesus please stand up.

I don't believe Calvinism and if you were to survey people today, some people are a three point Calvinist and others are a four point Calvinist because they don't believe everything sold to them in Calvinism and our Bible college up here doesn't believe in Calvinism. I was reading a book that plainly states that both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by theway

That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

You can't work for salvation because the wages of sin is death. We are all going to die some day and death is one per person so if you could work your way to pay for it then why can't you prevent your own death by working for life here on earth?

Second, you would have to show me where a works based system is fair to people in wheel chairs, widows, handicapped, mentally challenged, etc.

Third, what could you exactly offer the owner of the earth something that He doesn't already own?

Fourth, there is going to be a new earth so God isn't exactly holding onto keeping the old earth. So what could you possibly offer Him from here that He can't already make?

Fifth, works based systems are arbitrary and the rules are set by humans and not God. The law was a mirror to show you that you are not righteous and people are trying to use works to prove that they are clean or that they can get clean.

I wrote a book destroying the James 2:17 "works without faith is dead" argument and I want to get it into an E-book format on the Kindle but getting it from m****cript form to the Kindle is something I haven't done before.

There is no such thing as cheap grace. I'm ***uming you're talking about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Grace cost God something unimaginable; His son. Since the sin was against God, only God can pay for your sins and your transgressions because your finite works cannot pay the worth of God. Sin is eternal so you would have to pay in hell eternally to pay for your sin or you would have to find someone eternal to pay the price for you.

Your arguments go against the revelation of the Bible where God stated His will. God came down from heaven to us to display Himself and to make a way. No man has gone up to heaven to make things right with God.

Therefore you need the Lord Christ Jesus for salvation. The definition is grace through faith through Christ alone and you have to understand blood atonement to understand Christianity.

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by theway

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

English Standard Version
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-22.htm

Because shedding of Jesus' blood is necessary, there is no forgiveness of sins if you don't want to believe in the correct Jesus.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

There is no cheap grace. Jesus paid DEARLY.