was lucifer created evil?

[stemelbow]

Funny, JD. Typical too--change the subject to your rather jaded talking points whenever you get stuck in your illogic. Adorable...JD.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Spoken like a true atheists stem!

You want to call yourself Christian and yet you have the gall to judge God and blame Him because someone he spoke into existence and was given free will became evil! Shame on you mormon!!!

The only thing that can be traced back to God is that He gave "Lucifer" free will.

Lucifer chose to sin...it was not programed into him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of they tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou are the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee”.

Your post is full of nothing but human reasoning...learn to read what the Bible says about given situations and quit with the humanistic hogwash...Jesus dealt with that when He said to Peter.....

Matthew 16

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Until you are saved and have the infilling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand the things of God and are only spinning your wheels to your hurt.

It was Lucifer's choice to become evil and God had a way to turn that to His advantage.

God did not choose for Lucifer to become evil, that was Lucifer's choice, so quit blaming God.

Pity the blind mormon!

Andy

I know what the BIble says that's why I find your belief system so problematic, Andy. My question is in relation to the belief system you guys have..not what the Bible says. The questioning and argumentation I've raised shows your belief system to be problematic, yet you and your partners refuse to engage the argument, for some reason. I wonder why that is.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Its even more clear to anyone who understands your trickery, JD, that your questioning is some vein attempt to avoid the topic and arguments presented. Like you've been doing for quite a few posts now.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Yours is nothing but a sop****ric attempt at "philosophizing", second-guessing God, stem.

Your arguments are NOT founded in scripture, but in Mormon SPECULATION.

The same arguments you're supposedly attacking Christianity with are likewise VALID for Mormon presuppositions.

You supposedly believe that the Mormon god is OMNISCIENT, so why don't you apply your own line of reasoning as to WHY the mormo-god saw Lucifer's actions in advance and let them happen???

Contrary to your beliefs, whether Lucifer were created ex nihilo, or "begotten" as some kind of spirit baby is IRRELEVANT to the issue.

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

FJD, who is the author of the Star Wars saga? (George Lucas, in case you have been in a monastery for the past 30 years) Who is responsible for the parts in the Star Wars universe where Palpatine, Anakin--ANY of the bad guys--"chooses" EVIL? THE AUTHOR, FJD. Do you really propose that those characters--who Lucas created ex nihilo--are responsible for how they turned out? Hello, Lucas created them to be either good guys or bad guys--vessels destined, by the end of the series, to be either vessels for glory or for destruction. JUST LIKE YOUR VERSION OF GOD conceived, designed, and wrote the screenplay for the characters in this universe. The AUTHOR of the universe, its first cause, is the one 100% responsible for what happens in his creation.

How can this keep sailing over your head? (Except on purpose, of course) Imagine George Lucas refusing to take responsibility for the actions of the characters he created! "Oh, sure, I created them all from nothing, but they have free will to choose good or evil...somehow...it's not my fault, I just created 'em and let 'em go like windup toys with free will, even though I, as THE AUTHOR of the whole series, wrote the entire story. Don't come blaming me if you don't like the choices that Vader or Boba Fett made...I'm just the AUTHOR! Like Pontius Pilate, I wash my hands of responsibility for what they did...."

Of course you don't like facing this reality--who would?--but your world-view makes God the author of all the evil in what He creates because, by your own definition, HE is the AUTHOR of the whole shebang.

[stemelbow]

savvy illustration, Jeff.

I'm not even a star wars fan but I do know Anakin became bad at some point. Didn't he also express remorse or sumpin? Anyway, the character himself was a product of George Lucas' mind, just like Lucifer was such of God's mind. God knew his script before he was created out of the nothingness. It makes me wonder, according to JD's mixed up belief system, why didn't God create JD and stuff him in lucifer's place. Surely JD wouldn't have sought out to tempt Eve in some hope to cause the downfall of all of mankind, right? JD?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

savvy illustration, Jeff.

I'm not even a star wars fan but I do know Anakin became bad at some point. Didn't he also express remorse or sumpin? Anyway, the character himself was a product of George Lucas' mind, just like Lucifer was such of God's mind. God knew his script before he was created out of the nothingness. It makes me wonder, according to JD's mixed up belief system, why didn't God create JD and stuff him in lucifer's place. Surely JD wouldn't have sought out to tempt Eve in some hope to cause the downfall of all of mankind, right? JD?

love,
stem

LOL. More Mormon speculation, stemmy, 'cause that's all you've got.

[Father_JD]

You're the one who brought up "logic"...something Mos don't possess.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Its even more clear to anyone who understands your trickery, JD, that your questioning is some vein attempt to avoid the topic and arguments presented. Like you've been doing for quite a few posts now.

love,
stem

I'm asking you to ENGAGE BIBLICALLY, not according to Mormon speculation and/or doctrine, stem.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

Not so, as I already explained, JD. In your belief system God conceived of evil before anyone else ever was. In LDS belief system God merely knew that evil was already practiced for eternity past, Lucifer was only another evil prac***ioner in a long line. God did not conceive of Lucifer's deeds, they already were for eternity. Hope this helps your illogic.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF.

Not really.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

yeah...not one Mormon understands logic according to JD, but he gets all illogical in the very thread he exclaims such. It just has not bite, JD, when you claim others aren't logical, seeing as how illogical you are.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

My argument has been posed to refute your beliefs. your beliefs aren't biblical. That's not my fault, JD. Now hows about you actually engage the argument?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

My argument has been posed to refute your beliefs. your beliefs aren't biblical. That's not my fault, JD. Now hows about you actually engage the argument?

love,
stem

You haven't once cited BIBLICAL scripture in support of your wild accusations, stemmy.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Not so, as I already explained, JD. In your belief system God conceived of evil before anyone else ever was. In LDS belief system God merely knew that evil was already practiced for eternity past, Lucifer was only another evil prac***ioner in a long line. God did not conceive of Lucifer's deeds, they already were for eternity. Hope this helps your illogic.



Not really.

love,
stem

Of course God KNOWS what "evil" IS, stemmy. But you're mistaken when you think Lucifer is ETERNAL as God IS, stem.

Bad theology. In complete contradiction to Col. 1.

So where's your SCRIPTURE to support your NONSENSE??

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

yeah...not one Mormon understands logic according to JD, but he gets all illogical in the very thread he exclaims such. It just has not bite, JD, when you claim others aren't logical, seeing as how illogical you are.

love,
stem

I'm not the one who insists in believing in the BOA when the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE proves its a FRAUD, a HOAX.

You haven't one "logical" bone in your body, stem. Why do you even try?

[nrajeff]

FJD, YOU claimed that God is the AUTHOR of everything that has ever existed, does exist, or will exist. The AUTHOR has responsibility for what he AUTHORED, FJD. Including any evil done by any of the characters he created, er, AUTHORED. You are the one who has painted yourself into the corner of where your beliefs and up. This has nothing to do with LDS speculation or LDS teachings. Your dilemma would still exist even if Joe Smith had never been born. Your dilemma existed before anyone knew anything about Joseph Smith. The fact that he and us pointed out the abomination that your beliefs lay on God's doorstep, is just us being the messenger that your emperor is naked. Whether we are around to bring you the news or not, the status of your emperor remains the same.

[stemelbow]

My point exactly, JD. There's no need to cite scripture when your belief system, particularly on this point, is so anti-biblical. ya got a problem with that? Then address the argument. I know your reason to continually avoid the topic, but its worth seeing the amount of posts you add here in hopes to add credibility to your avoidance. Its adorable if nothing more.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

So you concede the point that your beleif system shows God to be the very source of all evil? Interesting concession, JD. As for my belief system....Col. 1 does not in anyway refute it. Nice try though.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Well said, Jeff. JD's been hiding behind his "well you believe the BoA..." complaint whenever backed into a corner. His desperation is telling. Long ago he conceded that God did create evil, only He said you must qualify it with the term "indirectly". So to JD, God is the source of evil "indirectly". Anyway, it seems he'll leave it at that, hoping somehow this whole issue will just go away so he can continue to grandstand and claim he knows what he's talking about in regards to the BoA because he saw some info on the net which mimicked Charles Larson's attempted critiques.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

So you concede the point that your beleif system shows God to be the very source of all evil? Interesting concession, JD. As for my belief system....Col. 1 does not in anyway refute it. Nice try though.

love,
stem

So the mormon god knew of evil the whole time and knew it had to exist so he fixed it so man couldn't obey him by giving a contradictory commandment.. And you turn and blame God for knowing all things and therefore knowing that Satan would be evil, knowing that Adam would sin, knowing that stemelbow would reject him yet He went ahead anyway and created us.. Therefore He is the one that is guilty of sin not man? So a prison warden that knows a man is going to be released and has promised to kill his wife who testified against him putting him in prison is guilty of that woman's murder when that man stands above her, his hands covered in her blood.. NONSENSE!! That is a flat refusal to take responsibility for your own actions.. God's knows, yes He knows.. Did he cause it? NO, to say He did it to be a fool.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Well said, Jeff. JD's been hiding behind his "well you believe the BoA..." complaint whenever backed into a corner. His desperation is telling. Long ago he conceded that God did create evil, only He said you must qualify it with the term "indirectly". So to JD, God is the source of evil "indirectly". Anyway, it seems he'll leave it at that, hoping somehow this whole issue will just go away so he can continue to grandstand and claim he knows what he's talking about in regards to the BoA because he saw some info on the net which mimicked Charles Larson's attempted critiques.

love,
stem

God created us all with free will.. That means there is the possibility to do evil.. That doesn't mean that God forces the evil.. You teach your children right from wrong.. You teach them to do right but you know they will fail at some time in their life they will sin.. You KNOW THAT.. I guess you are guilty of their sin because you knew they would commit it.. Your logic is garbage.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Sorry, Jim, considering the arguments I've laid here, your ****ogy doesn't apply. I didn't create my children from my imagination, or ex nihilo. My goodness one of them is adopted. I didn't have any part of creating him.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sorry, Jim, considering the arguments I've laid here, your ****ogy doesn't apply. I didn't create my children from my imagination, or ex nihilo. My goodness one of them is adopted. I didn't have any part of creating him.

love,
stem

Are you comparing yourself to God? I wonder just how God deals with the level of Blasphemy that mormons seem to live in... IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

FJD, YOU claimed that God is the AUTHOR of everything that has ever existed, does exist, or will exist. The AUTHOR has responsibility for what he AUTHORED, FJD. Including any evil done by any of the characters he created, er, AUTHORED. You are the one who has painted yourself into the corner of where your beliefs and up. This has nothing to do with LDS speculation or LDS teachings. Your dilemma would still exist even if Joe Smith had never been born. Your dilemma existed before anyone knew anything about Joseph Smith. The fact that he and us pointed out the abomination that your beliefs lay on God's doorstep, is just us being the messenger that your emperor is naked. Whether we are around to bring you the news or not, the status of your emperor remains the same.

No, jeff. You've either misunderstood, or I failed to qualify...I'm not sure which one is true here.

What DOES the Bible say, jeff??

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.

Theodicy has been a discipline for thousands of years and has challenged the greatest minds in church history such as St. Augustine of Hippo.

Mormonism is NOT the "answer".

Why?

Because Mormonism CHEATS by denying God His attributes as WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

You have NO answer, but merely have created a whole host of other dilemmas for yourselves.