No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So do you subscribe to a belief-based soteriology? Or a grace-based one?

What do you THINK, jeff?

I subscribe to what the BIBLE SAYS:

BY Grace THROUGH FAITH (And faith entails "belief")

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

What do you THINK, jeff?

---Based on what you SAY half the time, I think you're part of a profession-based religion---if the person can just profess with his mouth that Trinitarianism makes sense, that TULIP doesn't really portray God as a capricious tyrant, and that the LDS are hellbound, then you guys will stamp that person with the "Yep, he's a born-again, OSAS Christian" label.

I subscribe to what the BIBLE SAYS:
BY Grace THROUGH FAITH (And faith entails "belief")

--That is the root of your problem: You subscribe ONLY to that proof text, to the exclusion of the rest of the New Testament's mentions of hope, charity, and obedience.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
What do you THINK, jeff?

---Based on what you SAY half the time, I think you're part of a profession-based religion---if the person can just profess with his mouth that Trinitarianism makes sense, that TULIP doesn't really portray God as a capricious tyrant, and that the LDS are hellbound, then you guys will stamp that person with the "Yep, he's a born-again, OSAS Christian" label.

C'mon, jeff. This is merely a cheap shot and you know it and I won't even dignify it.

Quote:
I subscribe to what the BIBLE SAYS:
BY Grace THROUGH FAITH (And faith entails "belief")

--That is the root of your problem: You subscribe ONLY to that proof text, to the exclusion of the rest of the New Testament's mentions of hope, charity, and obedience.

Funny, i.e. your "projection" of your heremeneutical Mormon sins upon me, jeff. LOL.

If you would spend even a fraction of your time in the Bible instead of LDS publications, you might really begin to understand what's really taught in the Bible.

I suggest you read I John really, really close for your answer...
__________________

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

C'mon, jeff. This is merely a cheap shot and you know it and I won't even dignify it.

---You won't even dignify it with "That is almost as cheap a shot as us accusing LDS of believing in WORKS-BASED salvation" ???

Yes, now perhaps the lightbulb has come on above you, and you have realized that what is good for you geese is pretty good when us ganders use it back at you.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

accusing LDS of believing in WORKS-BASED salvation"

But Jeff you do realize that the LDS system IS works based don't you?

Give us the list of requirements for exaltation Jeff--please, pretty please.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But Jeff you do realize that the LDS system IS works based don't you?

---Why would I "realize" something that is FALSE? Time for another logic lesson: Even if LDS soteriology incorporated charity for others as one of many COMPONENTS of salvation, the charity would not be the BASIS for or of it. That is where your terrible reasoning broke down and died. If bread's ingredients include a pound of flour and a half-teaspoon of salt, YOUR "logic" would say that bread is a salt-based food.

You lose again.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Why would I "realize" something that is FALSE?

It is completely true that works are required for exhalation. The fact that you deny this does not change the fact that it is. Jesus is required but works are also required.

[Libby]

From Gospel Principles - Chapter 47 - Requirements for Exaltation

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for time and eternity.


In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

Love and worship God.

Love our neighbor.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Live the law of chas***y.

Pay honest ***hes and offerings.

Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

Speak the truth always.

Obey the Word of Wisdom.

Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Honor our parents.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

[Libby]

That's quite a long list of "no works".

One of the things that struck me, deeply, one day, was that by the above reasoning, I could be kept out of the Celestial Kingdom for simply having a cup of coffee.

Just didn't seem right....definitely of man, IMO.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That's quite a long list of "no works".

One of the things that struck me, deeply, one day, was that by the above reasoning, I could be kept out of the Celestial Kingdom for simply having a cup of coffee.

Just didn't seem right....definitely of man, IMO.

Thanks for the post Libby. I really don't understand how Jeff can state point blank that works are not required for exaltation.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is completely true that works are required for exhalation.

--OBEDIENCE is required for salvation, and so is FAITH. Your laughable excuse for reasoning should then lead you to believe that LDS are an OBEDIENCE-based religion. Or is it a FAITH-based religion, since it is undeniable (unless you are in total denial, which you may be) that LDS doctrine is that faith IS required for salvation. But wait: AS YOU YOURSELF SAID, it's ALSO LDS doctrine that Jesus and His ATONEMENT are required for us to be saved. So, again using your "logic," the LDS believe in JESUS-based salvation.

After all, according to YOUR OWN REASONING, if it's required for salvation, then salvation is BASED ON IT.

So congratulations: You just proved that LDS believe in Jesus-based and faith-based salvation!
Once again you have been beaten by your own poor reasoning skills.

The fact that you deny this does not change the fact that it is so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So congratulations: You just proved that LDS believe in Jesus-based and faith-based salvation!
Once again you have been beaten by your own poor reasoning skills.

The fact that you deny this does not change the fact that it is so.

You can talk until you are blue in the face and the fact will remain--LDS religion IS a works based religion. It is OK Jeff, just admit it. You lose credibility where you try to deny what all of us know is true.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You can talk until you are blue in the face and the fact will remain--

---Yeah, the fact will remain that none are so blind as the Billyray who is too prideful, and too arrogant and addicted to arguing to WANT to see.

LDS religion IS a works based religion. It is OK Jeff, just admit it

---If you will "admit" that you, Billyray, are a sulfur-BASED being, then I will consider the possibility that your logic is valid.


See my new thread for details.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Yeah, the fact will remain that none are so blind as the Billyray who is too prideful, and too arrogant and addicted to arguing to WANT to see.

Jeff, list the requirements FOR exaltation. You can even copy and paste the list from Libby's post.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-
-If you will "admit" that you, Billyray, are a sulfur-BASED being, then I will consider the possibility that your logic is valid.

Speaking of alien life. The lifecycle of the LDS person is completely alien to the Bible.

Intelligence----->God the Father incorporates this intelligence into his packaged and procreates with Heavenly mother----->spiritual child------>human----->God (potentially)

This is more like reincarnation than what the Bible speaks about that we were created by God.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Speaking of alien life.

---Are you DENYING that you are a sulfur-based being, Billyray? Or are you just admitting that you're an alien?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Are you DENYING that you are a sulfur-based being, Billyray? Or are you just admitting that you're an alien?

Stand back Jeff and look at what you have to do to try and prove Mormonism true. You have to completely avoid the facts and turn and instead try to discredit the deliverer. This is standard operating procedure for LDS. It is like you guys all take the same mind control cl*** in how to defend your beliefs. This fact alone should clue in any sane person that what you believe is a complete fabrication made up in the mind of a crafty person i.e. Joseph Smith the convict gl*** looker.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Stand back Jeff and look at what you have to do to try and prove Mormonism true. You have to completely avoid the facts and turn and instead try to discredit the deliverer.

---If The Great Deliverer's reasoning is flawed, shouldn't that be pointed out? Or are you a supporter of the theory that it's wrong to point out that the emperor isn't really wearing clothes?

This is standard operating procedure for LDS.

---You claim to have been LDS; was it SOP for YOU?

It is like you guys all take the same mind control cl***

---So you feel that YOU took such a cl***? What grade did you get?

in how to defend your beliefs.

---I don't recall having taken any formal cl*** in Exposing the Flawed, Fallacious Reasoning in Some People's Attacks. But it IS a fun pastime or hobby, and I think I'm getting pretty good at it!

This fact alone should clue in any sane person that what you believe is a complete fabrication made up in the mind of a crafty person i.e. Joseph Smith the convict gl*** looker.

---So you're saying that if anyone dares to mention the fallacious reasoning upon which your accusations and attacks are based, it proves that person believes in "a complete fabrication made up in the mind of a crafty person i.e. Joseph Smith the convict gl*** looker" ???

Really? I think you are exhibiting more flawed reasoning. Would you like me to point out what's wrong with it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"]
---So you're saying that if anyone dares to mention the fallacious reasoning upon which your accusations and attacks are based, it proves that person believes in "a complete fabrication made up in the mind of a crafty person i.e. Joseph Smith the convict gl*** looker" ???

My reasoning is with the facts, i.e. scripture. You take scripture and twist it and deny it. These facts can be pointed out to you but you have to make up some sort of excuse as to why they are not true. If these phony baloney excuses don't work for you--the next strategy is to try and discredit the deliverer. That is exactly what you have done. But the sad truth is that despite all of this, you will be the one who ends up holding the empty bag.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--OBEDIENCE is required for salvation, and so is FAITH. Your laughable excuse for reasoning should then lead you to believe that LDS are an OBEDIENCE-based religion. Or is it a FAITH-based religion, since it is undeniable (unless you are in total denial, which you may be) that LDS doctrine is that faith IS required for salvation. But wait: AS YOU YOURSELF SAID, it's ALSO LDS doctrine that Jesus and His ATONEMENT are required for us to be saved. So, again using your "logic," the LDS believe in JESUS-based salvation.

After all, according to YOUR OWN REASONING, if it's required for salvation, then salvation is BASED ON IT.

So congratulations: You just proved that LDS believe in Jesus-based and faith-based salvation!
Once again you have been beaten by your own poor reasoning skills.

The fact that you deny this does not change the fact that it is so.

Obedience is the result of salvation, Jeff. Not the cause. It's really that simple (and that is biblical).

[Libby]

Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

*************************

It just does not get anymore clear than that. Justified by FAITH apart from observing (OBEYING) the law.

This is the Word of God. Read it and believe.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

Obedience is the result of salvation, Jeff. Not the cause. It's really that simple (and that is biblical).

--It is ANTI-Biblical to subscribe to a belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do.

This is part of the insidiousness of Calvinism, and I am saddened to think that you have fallen for the following beliefs:

1. The false belief that God doesn't want to save all people because it's not the individual who decides to be saved--it's ALL GOD, so if some people aren't saved, it's because God didn't want them saved.
2. The false belief that God--not the individual whose salvation/ eternal destiny is on the line--is the one who chooses who will obey Him and who won't.
3. The false belief that therefore, God doesn't want all people to obey Him.

Jesus would be appalled that people claiming to be His disciples think He subscribed to such distorted ideas about His Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Obedience is the result of salvation, Jeff. Not the cause. It's really that simple (and that is biblical).

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-It is ANTI-Biblical to subscribe to a belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do.

Jeff, what you just did was typical of your apologetics. It is clearly a sleight of hand. Libby was saying works are not required for salvation but that they flow because of your salvation. Your statement "belief system where obedience to God's will is NOT one of the things that God wants all people to do" is completely false--a straw man argument and as noted earlier a sleight of hand on your part.

[nrajeff]

I stand behind my argument that she has fallen for the cart-before-horse heresy of Calvinism. I stand behind my claim that salvation is the result of OBEYING GOD'S WILL---not vice versa.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I stand behind my argument that she has fallen for the cart-before-horse heresy of Calvinism. I stand behind my claim that salvation is the result of OBEYING GOD'S WILL---not vice versa.

Believe this heresy as much as you like, jeff...but don't deny you've affirmed yet again:

Salvation comes through WORKS..,(with maybe a tad "faith" thrown in)