Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Come on Mark--try to be honest here.

Ephesian 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
And since we apparently disagree on the appropriate interpretation of a verse, I am being dishonest? I at least have provided a reasoned explanation of what Ephesians 2:8-9 means. No on has given a reasoned response challenging what I said. Y'all just revert to your mantra of Faith, not Works, relying on a verse that DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Now, I personally think it impossible that you missed my explanation earlier. After all, you posted more than once in the thread in which it appears, and it is not a lengthy thread. But in order to make it convenient for you, I will post it once again.

Quote Originally Posted by Mark Beesley View Post
I was lying in bed thinking of the issue that Jeff raised in the opening post, i.e. whether the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is faith or salvation, and it occurred to me that both Lyons and Nebeker made it more complicated than it needed to be.

It is really quite a simple task to determine whether faith or salvation is the gift referenced by Paul. One simply needs to look at the Greek word for gift that is used in verse 8.

There are essentially 3 Greek words that are translated into the English as gift: doron, dorea, and charisma. Throughout the New Testament, whenever a sacrificial offering is called a gift, the Greek word used is doron.

On the other hand, when spiritual gifts are referenced in the New Testament, as in 1 Corinthians 12, the Greek word used is charisma, a free gift, or as Strongs describes it "a favour which one receives without any merit of his own." Charisma (free gift) is NEVER used to describe the gift of salvation.

Faith is referred to as a free gift (charisma) in 1 Corinthians 12:9. So it is really a rather simply matter to look at Ephesians 2:8 to see whether the Greek word from which gift is translated is charisma or doron. Not surprisingly, the word Paul used in Ephesians 2:8 is doron, in stark contrast to his use of the word charisma in 1 Corinthians 12:9.

Thus, we can say that the gift of salvation is Christ's sacrificial offering for us, and not the unmerited free gift that some Christians erroneously call it. Christ has laid His sacrifice on the altar, and it is our responsibility to accept it. We show this acceptance throught doing those things which Christ commanded, i.e. love God, love our neighbor, enter the waters of baptism, and so forth. The ****able heresy of the Calvinists, that God determines who may accept this offerering of Christ, is rightly called an abomination.
What this boils down to, Billyray, is this. Salvation ultimately is a gift that Christ offers us, but no one is compelled to accept it. The gift spoken of in Ephesians 2 is grace, not faith. That is clear from the Greek. Now, without this gift of grace, works cannot save us. But unless we accept that gift, by doing those things Christ commanded, grace cannot save us either. Without works, we have rejected the gift Christ offers. We accept Christ's offer of grace through our works, through obedience.

Now then, don't bother reciting your mantra again. If you want to respond, please provide something supported by the Scpritures showing that what I have explained cannot be true.