No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The only place in the Bible where it uses the term faith alone is in a refutation of this false doctrine.

What works did the thief on the cross do to earn his salvation?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Then WHY are you arguing for "washing of regeneration" meaning WATER BAPTISM???

I agree, washing of regeneration does indeed mean SPIRITUAL REGENERATION.

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true,and undertake to be able to live accordingly,and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting,for the remission of their sins that are past,we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For,in the name of God,the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ,and of the Holy Spirit,they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said,‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (First Apology 61).

Augustine

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration,die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said,‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit,he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally,‘Whoever confesses me before men,I too will confess him before my Father,who is in heaven’" (The City of God 13:7).

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thanks,Mesenja...er, I guess so. I'll patiently await your studied response from my point by point re****al of Ostler's remarks.

I will only deal with your critique of Blake Ostler's comments on Calvinism. It should be posted sometime next week if not earlier.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Born Again
Hear the gospel message
Faith (place my trust in Christ)
Repent (turn away from my sins)
Baptism (after my conversion)

Lets test your theory Mesenja. I have done the following steps. Will I be exalted? I am quoting YOU directly. You are the one that made this list now you seem to be backing away. Make up your mind.

Go and compare the order of the steps that were taken in your conversion and that found in any of the conversion stories in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. See how they align Billy and then get back to me.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

So it boils down to this question:What % of things can a person have wrong about the Biblical Jesus that would make them no longer worshiping that Jesus?

Why is it so hard to answer the question that Vlad asked you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Go and compare the order of the steps that were taken in your conversion and that found in any of the conversion stories in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. See how they align Billy and then get back to me.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent (turn away from my old ways)
4. Confess (profess faith in Christ)
5. Be baptized

I have done the above 5 after leaving Mormonism and having my named removed from the LDS church. Will I be exalted if I follow your 5 steps above?

My list in the above post is EXACTLY like your list Mesenja. Now how about answering the question. I have done the above 5 after leaving Mormonism and having my named removed from the LDS church. Will I be exalted if I follow your 5 steps above?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What works did the thief on the cross do to earn his salvation?

Jesus said that "Verily I say unto thee,To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." However the resurrected Christ said to Mary "Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God, and your God"

[Mesenja]

You listed being Born Again as the first step in your conversion. This runs completely counter to the every conversion story in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. Besides that I have already answered your question.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by Billyray

My list in the above post is EXACTLY like your list Mesenja. Now how about answering the question. I have done the above 5 after leaving Mormonism and having my named removed from the LDS church. Will I be exalted if I follow your 5 steps above?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Born Again
Hear the gospel message
Faith (place my trust in Christ)
Repent (turn away from my sins)
Baptism (after my conversion)

Lets test your theory Mesenja. I have done the following steps. Will I be exalted? I am quoting YOU directly. You are the one that made this list now you seem to be backing away. Make up your mind.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief wasn't saved

Sure he was. The whole intent of that p***age was that he was saved.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Jesus said that "Verily I say unto thee,To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." However the resurrected Christ said to Mary "Touch me not;for I am not yet ascended to my Father:but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my Father,and your Father;and to my God, and your God"

So? Who ever says that the thief was with God the Father just after he died? I really don't understand this argument. By this argument Abraham would not be saved either.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You listed being Born Again as the first step in your conversion. This runs completely counter to the every conversion story in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES. Besides that I have already answered your question.

You seem to be avoiding answering this question. Why?

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

I listed the steps exactly like you in two prior posts. If someone does these steps and follows this order will they be exalted?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure he was. The whole intent of that p***age was that he was saved.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So? Who ever says that the thief was with God the Father just after he died? I really don't understand this argument. By this argument Abraham would not be saved either.

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

Today,You will be with me in paradise
March 25,2008—Rachel

Today,You will be with me in paradise
Good Friday Sermon presented by Kenton David
on 03/21/2008 at Miller Evangelical Christian Union Church

The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But,Jesus never sinned. The reason why he never sinned was because he was God in human flesh. That means he’s flawless,he’s holy,he’s perfect and he can never make a mistake. The question is why was he on the cross. Well its because he loved us. Jesus said in John 10 “I will sacrifice my life for my sheep. So not only did the thief fear god,not only did he see Jesus as a righteous man but the final reason that helped him get into paradise is that he saw Jesus as Lord. That was the difference between this thief and the first thief,the Roman soldiers and the leaders. Each one of them said if you be the Christ,If you are the Son of God. But this thief said Lord. Notice he did not say if you be Lord,notice he did not say if you get into your kingdom but he said Lord when you get into your kingdom remember me. I believe that the dying criminal had more faith than the rest of Jesus’ followers put together. I say this because although the disciples continued to love Jesus,their hopes for the Kingdom were shattered. Most of them had gone into hiding. As one of his followers sadly said two days later, “We had thought he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel” (Luke 24:21). By contrast, the criminal looked at the man who was dying next to him and said,“Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” Faith can move mountains church. This man’s faith made him see beyond the present shame and he saw the coming glory. Now what blew me away was the way Jesus answered.




Notice Jesus did not tell him to enter my kingdom you have to be baptized. Notice he did not say that you have to have a position in the church. Jesus did not say anything like that but he said today. Not tomorrow,not next week or next month but TODAY you will be with me in paradise. That’s what you call ***urance of salvation. All because he saw Jesus as Lord. That’s important because Romans 10:9 says that “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God,and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


I believe church that many of us are just like the thief who ridiculed Jesus. We always question God & we always say well if you are God you wont let this happen to me & God being who he is because of his grace and mercy still loves us even when we question him. We consistently sin and every time we sin we nail Jesus right back on the cross & God sits there and watches us sacrifice his son over and over and over again. So I ask you do you not fear God even when you are spiritually hungry and dying. The thief who made it into heaven is a great example letting us know that even at the last minute you can be saved you can make it to paradise but we must be sincere. But don’t make it a practice to wait for the last minute because you can save yourself from a lot of pain and misery. So I leave you with this question when are you going to stop mocking and ridiculing Jesus and recognize him for who he is? Are you aiming to be told “today,you will be with me in paradise?”

Called 2 Ministry Christian Youth Ezine,March 25,2008,You will be with me in paradise Good Friday Sermon presented by Kenton David on 03/21/2008 at Miller Evangelical Christian Union Church

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

That is absolutely true. So you must have a point, what is it?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is absolutely true. So you must have a point, what is it?

My previous post was pretty clear as to what my point was. You don't have an argument.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Born Again
2. Hear the gospel message
3. Faith (place my trust in Christ)
4. Repent (turn away from my sins)
5. Baptism (after my conversion)

Lets test your theory Mesenja. I have done the following steps. Will I be exalted? I am quoting YOU directly. You are the one that made this list now you seem to be backing away. Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You seem to be avoiding answering this question. Why?

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

I listed the steps exactly like you in two prior posts. If someone does these steps and follows this order will they be exalted?

You seem to be avoiding doing this. Why? Let us see which pattern the conversion stories in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES most closely follow.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You seem to be avoiding doing this. Why? Let us see which pattern the conversion stories in THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES most closely follow.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You seem to be avoiding answering this question. Why?

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

I listed the steps exactly like you in two prior posts. If someone does these steps and follows this order will they be exalted?

Are you afraid to answer the question Mesenja? (BTW--this is not about me and my conversion this is about following a list that you provided and whether or not a person can be exalted if they follow YOUR list)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

My previous post was pretty clear as to what my point was. You don't have an argument.

It was completely unclear. That is why I asked you what was your point. Do you have one?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It was completely unclear. That is why I asked you what was your point. Do you have one?

Can you read this or do I need to enlarge the font size? You don't have an argument. Read my previous post. It has the evangelical argument for this verse and my refutation of it.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you afraid to answer the question Mesenja? (By the way--this is not about me and my conversion this is about following a list that you provided and whether or not a person can be exalted if they follow YOUR list)

First you asked if you would be exalted. Now you are asking if other people can be exalted. Are you special Billy? I gave a fits one fits all answer.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Can you read this or do I need to enlarge the font size? You don't have an argument. Read my previous post. It has the evangelical argument for this verse and my refutation of it.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Billy as you well know this is an evangelical proof text for salvation by faith alone. The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise that day. So what is your point?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

First you asked if you would be exalted. Now you are asking if other people can be exalted. Are you special Billy? I gave a fits one fits all answer.

Mesenja, you are the one who produced a list that you say is "blueprint for every conversion story in Acts". I gave you the exact list in my post. Here it is again

Originally Posted by Billyray

You seem to be avoiding answering this question. Why?

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

If someone does these steps and follows this order will they be exalted?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mesenja,you are the one who produced a list that you say is "blueprint for every conversion story in Acts". I gave you the exact list in my post. If someone does these steps and follows this order will they be exalted?

I'm not going to repeat my answer because you cant scroll up and read my post to the exact same question. And by the way Billy you can be saved and not exalted.

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132

17 For these angels did not abide my law;therefore,they cannot be enlarged,but remain separately and singly,without exaltation,in their saved condition,to all eternity;and from henceforth are not gods,but are angels of God forever and ever.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132


17 For these angels did not abide my law;therefore,they cannot be enlarged,but remain separately and singly,without exaltation,in their saved condition,to all eternity;and from henceforth are not gods,but are angels of God forever and ever.

Originally Posted by Billyray

You seem to be avoiding answering this question. Why?

1. Hear
2. Believe
3. Repent of our sins
4. Confess
5. Be baptized

So YOUR list that YOU gave me does not result in exaltation. OK. What does it offer me, ***uming that I follow your steps exactly and I am baptized (in a local Christian church Baptist etc.)?

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross was with Jesus in Paradise that day. So what is your point?

You don't have an argument that this incident either proves salvation by faith alone or death bed repentance. If you have a disagreement with the re****al I gave then present it. Constantly repeating a question that I have already answered is both rude and counter-productive.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

You don't have an argument that this incident either proves salvation by faith alone or death bed repentance.

Here is YOUR statement.

Originally Posted by Mesenja

The thief was saved or promised that today he would be with Him in paradise after his confession that Jesus was Lord.

I agree with you. What is your point. Mesenja, this is getting real old. You seem to have a difficult time expressing yourself. Just spit it out it will make it easier on both of us.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree with you. What is your point. Mesenja, this is getting real old. You seem to have a difficult time expressing yourself. Just spit it out it will make it easier on both of us.

You keep asking the same question that I have already answered in a previous post. Even Ray Charles can see the point I am trying to make.