What are the requirements to be a Christian?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

Here's a deal for you: You make sure that the people who attack the LDS stop just saying "The Bible says...." and I will try to always cite chapter and verse too, for as long as they do the same.

I will start right now:

John 17:3 NKJV

Wonderful verse.. Eternal life has nothing to do with works at all but is totally dependent on knowing God.. Since Jesus is also called God in scripture (John 20:28-29), and Jesus accepted that worship as God (Matthew 8:2-3).. So it is life eternal to know the Father, and the Son. After all they are the only true God. A Christian will have no problem with that verse doctrinally. After all not one of us will tell you that the Father and the Son are the same Person.. That is a mistake that mormonism makes again and again about what the Trinity really is.. I have taught it several times.. The Father is NOT the Son nor is either the Holy Spirit.. They are separate individual Persons, who are the one true God.. I have even explained this in creation to show how such a thing is possible. After all height is not breath, nor are either of those width. Each is a separate dimension, each infinite therefore each is all the space that can be (Not a single point in space that isn't part of each of all three of these dimension).. Yet all of them make one space.. That was a revelation given to me. A way that my weak human mind to understand the concept of how three eternal persons can be one Being.. Can you understand.. IHS jim

[Decalogue]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Who are you calling a Blasphemer?

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

Before you eat anything today , before you put your head on a pillow at bedtime ... you need to open up to the Gospel of John chapter 1. Read the first 18 verses !

Next turn over to John chapter 4 and read what Jesus of Nazareth says to and talks about with , the Samaritan woman at the well. Then turn over to John chapter 9 and read what Jesus does and says to the "man born blind".

Now turn over to the last Book of Holy Scripture and read The Revelation of Jesus Christ to St. John... ( The actual name of the book --- ( not as some wrongly call it ; 'revelations'. )

Revelation chapter 19 verse 16. " and he hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written , "KING OF KINGS" , AND LORD OF LORDS. "

The Lord Jesus Christ is NOT a false God ! You need to repent of your blasphemous statement which you posted above in #465.

..." Every knee shall bow , and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD ! "...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

..

You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up there Decalogue.

Im not all that sure whats the big problem?...but I caught enough to see the general flow of you guy's conversation.

Let me just define my terms first so we are on the same page.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity
Jesus has two natures.
Jesus is 100% fully God Almighty
Jesus is 100% fully human.

as a 100% full human just like us, Jesus had to pray to the Father in heaven as his God just like we do...

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You seem to have gotten yourself all worked up there Decalogue.

Im not all that sure whats the big problem?...but I caught enough to see the general flow of you guy's conversation.

Let me just define my terms first so we are on the same page.

Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity
Jesus has two natures.
Jesus is 100% fully God Almighty
Jesus is 100% fully human.

as a 100% full human just like us, Jesus had to pray to the Father in heaven as his God just like we do...

I have never seen it put in better terms. This is simple and so very true.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Read your own words that you posted in post # 465 above and figure it out .

You completely misread my post. Why don't you re read my post and figure out the point I was making to the other poster.

[Walrus]

[QUOTE=James Banta;92126]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I guess when Julie started thinking about this the question of birthright being in the house of Joseph went right out the window.. There is question that the sons of Joseph would have even had the right to bear mormon priesthood.. After all his wife was of Egypt and the founder of Egypt was under the ban:
Abraham 1:23, 24, 26
The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus...from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land...Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days...but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

And the Bible teaches that Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-Paneah and gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, to be his wife. And Joseph went throughout the land of Egypt (Genesis 41:45).. Yes I know that the LDS church say she wasn't of the linage under that ban but that isn't confirmed in the Bible.. He married a woman of EGYPT.. IHS jim

Well, Joseph had Ephraim and Man***eh and Joseph's father Jacob adopted them as his own. Genesis 48:16-19

The blessings promised to Ephraim and Man***eh are huge. Duet. 33:13-17..Joseph gets the big blessing by Moses.

Then you know Ezekial right? Pretty cool...I wonder when you would suppose that promise would be fulfilled....if Ephraim is the one to push all the House of Israel together, in the last days, then perhaps the Stick of Ephraim, which is meant, by God, to come forth and be combined with the stick of Judah, to be made One in God's hand...and in our hand.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=Walrus;92186]Well, Joseph had Ephraim and Man***eh and Joseph's father Jacob adopted them as his own. Genesis 48:16-19 and there we find the blessing that each tribe received at the hand of Israel their father..

Lets examine the difference between the blessings

To Judah he gave this blessing

Gen 49:8-12
Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

To Ephraim and Man***eh he gave this blessing:

Gen 48:15-16,20
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.
...In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Man***eh...

To the remainder of the house of Joseph this blessing:

Gen 49:22-26
Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

The blessings promised to Ephraim and Man***eh are huge. Duet. 33:13-17..Joseph gets the big blessing by Moses.

To Judah Moses' blessing came:

Deut 33:7
Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah, and bring him unto his people: let his hands be sufficient for him; and be thou an help to him from his enemies.

To Joseph he this blessing came:

Deut 33:13-16
Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.

I am not seeing that the blessing of any of Joseph is greater than the kingship not p***ing from Judah. Judah's blessing was pretty COOL!!

Then you know Ezekial right? Pretty cool...I wonder when you would suppose that promise would be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37 is about two separate nations being recombined as one.. I know what mormonism makes of that but their interpretation can't be supported by the text. For within the text there is an interpretation of that test (Ezk 37:18-23) There is nothing there about records or books.. Just two sticks one with Judah written on it and one with Israel written on it. The prophet puts them in one hand uniting them saying that the divided kingdoms will be no more. That they will be one nation again.

...if Ephraim is the one to push all the House of Israel together, in the last days, then perhaps the Stick of Ephraim, which is meant, by God, to come forth and be combined with the stick of Judah, to be made One in God's hand...and in our hand.

The prophecy that is given here that the nation will be united some say will not occur until the Lord comes again.. I think that it happened when Israel again became a nation in 1947. Remember Israel was taken captive by ***yria and never came out.. With the UN forming the nation of Israel I would say that Joseph was represented in that body that fulfilled the prophecy.. Of course, I could be wrong and the prophecy still awaits fulfillment..

A scroll of scripture is never called anything but a scroll. Even books of secular information were never called sticks. They were always called scrolls. Your teaching of mormonism to the contrary is a man invented interpretation of the text. Since it was interpreted in the text by God that is the ONLY interpretation that should be considered not what some man has taught.. IHS jim

[Decalogue]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You completely misread my post. Why don't you re read my post and figure out the point I was making to the other poster.

Billyray : Well --- I read your Post 3 times now ... and it still reeks in my nostrils. I just deleted the Post that I had ***led " Blasphemer".

I still do not know what you hold to. Your thread ***le sounds like you are a Mormon trying to ask a "trick question" of the Biblical Christians on this website. You have been given some answers to your Thread question , but you still don't seem to quite understand.

I honestly do not know what you believe in / hold to / trust in. I can tell from other posters such as BrianH and James Banta and neverending and some1you_know and Russ and a couple of others ( such as Columcille ). They uphold the Christian Faith which can easily be found in the pages of Holy Scripture. This is my 5th decade on the planet and I have a fairly good reading comprehension level ... ( as long as it is not about algebra and computer/techno geek-speak stuff ) but your posts are flat out



Whether that is intentional on your part --- to get controversy going ,,, or , a diversionary tactic which L.D.S. Headquarters @ S.L.C. has told you to do ,,, I'm not sure.

If you are a Born-Again / Blood-bought / Blessed Hope / Bible believing Christian ... ( only you and The Lord know for sure ) , then you really need to come up with a different and better way to make a point to "Hopeful Saint" than by posting the sentence which you did ... On a website which can be read anywhere in the world that has a computer & internet .

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Billyray : Well --- I read your Post 3 times now ... and it still reeks in my nostrils. I just deleted the Post that I had ***led " Blasphemer".

Maybe you need to read it a fourth time then. Here is a hint. The poster that I was addressing believes that Jesus and the Father are separate and distinct Gods. If they believe that the Father is the ONLY true God then this must mean that the Son is a false god.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Whether that is intentional on your part --- to get controversy going ,,, or , a diversionary tactic which L.D.S. Headquarters @ S.L.C. has told you to do ,,, I'm not sure.

BTW I am not LDS.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Wonderful verse..

Yeah, I thought so too, because it quotes Jesus (one of the 3 Persons of the "trinity") saying that His Father (a DIFFERENT Person of the trinity) is the only true God--at least as far as Christians are concerned.


That statement from the Person of the Son, saying that it's the Person of the Father who is the only true God, teaches some very important theological doctrine.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If they believe that the Father is the ONLY true God then this must mean that the Son is a false god.

I was just quoting a Bible verse. If you choose to accuse it of saying that Jesus is a false god, that's your choice, but LDS will disagree with your interpretation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

I was just quoting a Bible verse. If you choose to accuse it of saying that Jesus is a false god, that's your choice, but LDS will disagree with your interpretation.

If the Father is the ONLY true God and you believe the Father and the Son are separate and distinct Gods then what can you conclude?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

Yeah, I thought so too, because it quotes Jesus (one of the 3 Persons of the "trinity") saying that His Father (a DIFFERENT Person of the trinity) is the only true God--at least as far as Christians are concerned.


That statement from the Person of the Son, saying that it's the Person of the Father who is the only true God, teaches some very important theological doctrine.

And how is that untrue? Oh, if you don't understand the trinity then you would thing that it teaches three Gods.. IT DOESN'T! There is One true God who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three that exist together as God. never separated always one in the other.. All of one divine nature and essence. When Jesus says that the Father is the only true God He includes Himself.. This truth was revealed through the prophet:

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Must you really be told who this is? This Child that was born and given to us? He is indeed Wonderful, our Counselor, the Prince of Peace but this Child is also THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER..

Stop taking your little snippets out of the whole of the message from God and try to twist that message. Jesus doesn't exclude that He is God by that eternal life is had by knowing the only true God and Jesus whom that God sent.. He is saying that He was sent by God, which includes Himself.. After all he did claim to be YHWH did He not (John 8:58)? Remember look at the whole revelation not just a few pixels of the picture.. A distorted concept of the whole will always be understood if you do so.. That is what you have claimed a distorted view of the whole.. You refuse to accept the whole and grasp at straw of true that lead you to believe the lies that Smith generated from his distortions of the truth.. IHS jim

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If the Father is the ONLY true God and you believe the Father and the Son are separate and distinct Gods then what can you conclude?

You can conclude that Jesus, in His premortal existence where He was known as Yahweh, was the God of ancient Israel, and that Jesus' Father is the God of Christianity.

That is the conclusion that helps me make the most sense out of the Bible.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

You can conclude that Jesus, in His premortal existence where He was known as Yahweh, was the God of ancient Israel, and that Jesus' Father is the God of Christianity.

That is the conclusion that helps me make the most sense out of the Bible.

Then you cast off the Bible as it teaches that No other Gods were formed before YHWH, and none would be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10).. That He was a ****** God because there is another God that exists right in front of Him and He is smart enough to recognize Him as such. He didn't even know that He was a God, or there was another (Isaiah 44:8).. I am amazed of the low opinion that mormonism shows for the knowledge even the intelligence of God in this matter.. Did the Jesus you say is the real Jesus, your God of just the OT, teach Moses that the Lord his God was one Lord (Deut 6:4), or was this another time when that ****** god of mormonism just forget that the Father was there at that time? And who was the God that is said to be God from everlasting to everlasting in the Psalms (Psalm 90:2)?

Surely they weren't speaking of the Gods taught by Smith. They were created by a God who himself is the creation of yet an older more powerful God.. Seems that mormonism just plugs in the name of the God they think fits the circumstances as they try without success to understand who and what God really is.. For He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, The Being that has been God from eternity past, and will continue as the Only God into eternity future.. The God that is all powerful, all loving, all just, all pure, all righteous, always present, and all knowing.. Mormonism sells Him short depositing Him in the small slot that Smith built to push Him into.. That is THE REASON WHY MORMONISM IS NONCHRISTIAN. IT DENIES WHO AND WHAT GOD IS!!!! IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

You can conclude that Jesus, in His premortal existence where He was known as Yahweh, was the God of ancient Israel, and that Jesus' Father is the God of Christianity.

That is the conclusion that helps me make the most sense out of the Bible.

So you believe that there are two different Gods for different groups of people?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

You have been given some answers to your Thread question , but you still don't seem to quite understand

What do you think that I "don't seem to quite understand"?

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that there are two different Gods for different groups of people?

Yep. Ancient Israel had their God and they were commanded to not place any other God before that one, and then when Jesus came He told His disciples that for THEM, they should not place any God higher than Jesus' Father.

Simple as that, and it allows both Bible teachings--the OT and the NT--to be true. That's one reason I like this explanation, it allows me to believe the Bible to be true. That's a GOOD thing, right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by HopefulSaint

Yep. Ancient Israel had their God and they were commanded to not place any other God before that one, and then when Jesus came He told His disciples that for THEM, they should not place any God higher than Jesus' Father.

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

[jdjhere]

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

Wow, are we finally sorting out the gods now? This might take awhile..... I am going to get some popcorn...

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the Jew's God was Jesus (pre mortal Jesus) and the Gentile's God was God the Father?

I would say it this way: Ancient Israel's God was Jesus, aka God the Son (premortal, as you said), and God the Father is the God of CHRISTIANS, as per Jesus' teachings and the writings of His apostles in the NT.

[HopefulSaint]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Wow, are we finally sorting out the gods now? This might take awhile..... I am going to get some popcorn...

Didn't seem to take that long. How was your popcorn?

[jdjhere]

disappointing actually. I hardly started.

[jdjhere]

So wait..that IS two gods then?