Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I do think our nature interferes with keeping God's commandments, which is why we needed a Savior.

I certainly agree with you on this one Libby. In fact if a person had complete free will then he should be able to choose to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life--just like Christ. But not a single person has the ability to do so. And this brings us back where we were discussing Arminian verse Calvinism and how I was trying to show that each side could make a claim that a person didn't have a real choice therefore it wasn't fair. (But for the record before a poster such as JohnT misunderstands my position--I believe that each one of us make choices are what we desire and we will be held responsible for those choices.

Alan was so hot on this topic on the other thread I expected a more vigorous response from him but thus far I haven't seen it yet. I am still waiting for him to settle on a definition so I can get a better grasp on what he really believes. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.

[Libby]

I think Alan was okay with your dictionary definition...but, I'll let him clear that up for himself.

I know Calvinists don't believe we have the kind of "free will" described in your dictionary definition.

And this brings us back where we were discussing Arminian verse Calvinism and how I was trying to show that each side could make a claim that a person didn't have a real choice therefore it wasn't fair.

Yeah, this one caught me a little off guard. It's probably wrong to say that God does not have expectations that we cannot meet. His expectation is perfection and we sure as heck cannot meet that. We actually do need God's "grace" every step of the way.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I know Calvinists don't believe we have the kind of "free will" described in your dictionary definition.

Do you think that Arminians should hold the free will position--as defined by the dictionary definition--since they don't have the ability to keep all of the commandments and they don't have the ability to come to Christ on their own?


Yeah, this one caught me a little off guard. It's probably wrong to say that God does not have expectations that we cannot meet. His expectation is perfection and we sure as heck cannot meet that. We actually do need God's "grace" every step of the way.[/QUOTE]

[Libby]

Do you think that Arminians should hold the free will position--as defined by the dictionary definition--since they don't have the ability to keep all of the commandments and they don't have the ability to come to Christ on their own?

What I have read of their position, on free will, they would not hold to the Webster definition. They would disagree with Calvinists that regeneration is necessary, in order to come to Christ, but they do believe God's grace is a necessity, to help overcome the sin nature.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What I have read of their position, on free will, they would not hold to the Webster definition.

If that is the case then you can see why using the term "free will" means something different for different people and until we can agree on a definition--even just for this thread--we don't really have a good understanding of what each person means when they use the word "free will".

Originally Posted by Libby

They would disagree with Calvinists that regeneration is necessary, in order to come to Christ, but they do believe God's grace is a necessity, to help overcome the sin nature.

So Arminians would agree that they do not have the ability to come to Christ on their own. Is that a fair ***essment?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If that is the case then you can see why using the term "free will" means something different for different people and until we can agree on a definition--even just for this thread--we don't really have a good understanding of what each person means when they use the word "free will".

Yes, I agree, definitions are important, otherwise, we are not understanding where the person we're talking with is coming from.

So Arminians would agree that they do not have the ability to come to Christ on their own. Is that a fair ***essment?

It's probably fair to say that, yes. But, they do believe we have much more "ability", than Calvinists believe.

An Arminian once described it to me as a "give and take" process. I think I described that to you, in another post.

[alanmolstad]

i would like a link to a nonreligious site.....something that jusy lays out the term without slanted judgements.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

i would like a link to a nonreligious site.....something that jusy lays out the term without slanted judgements.....

http://www.merriam-webster.com

Alan perhaps we can get an agreement on how you are using this word so I can better understand what you really mean when you are using this term.

[alanmolstad]

its 2:30 here......im on my phone.......
im still in bed.......wife cant sleep and is keeping me awake......

billy why.........you know billy i have posted so much on this topic already that anyone has a doubt what free will means.....


free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

will - means you thinking mind

[alanmolstad]

billy....
if you have a question i will be glad to have a look at it.

if there was a post of mine you callninto question?... just show me it and i will have a look.

if there is a bible verse you want to talk about?... list it.



i will be happy to answer all your questions.....in about un.....17 hours ornso.....LOL

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

will - means you thinking mind

I believe that those who are not elect willingly choose to reject Christ and that they don't feel forced to do so. Would you say that this is "free will" by your definition?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believe that those who are not elect willingly choose to reject Christ and that they don't feel forced to do so. Would you say that this is "free will" by your definition?

feel?..............

if you decide to rob a bank you can be found guilty.

but if i strap a bomb to you and tell you to go rob the bank or i will **** you up you will not be found guilty.

the difference is free will.......

[alanmolstad]

so free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice.

even my dog and cat can do that.


its about the freedom to choise and not being forced to decide one thing over the other.

free to decide.....free to make up your own mind....freedom to change your mind too.....freedom to repent.....nothing set in stone.....

[alanmolstad]

so free willnis not jusst the ability to make a choice......but that is part of it.


and free will is not just about feelings......but that is connected to it.


but its about being truly free of will.
to be truly free of force......to not be bound.....not just to feel free. but to truly be free.

[alanmolstad]

errors isnwording due to im on phone....

[alanmolstad]

feelings can lie to us.....

a slave can become convinced he is free by his feelings.

[alanmolstad]

free will gives us the ability to love

[alanmolstad]

ok, I'm on my computer now.....
Smart phones help us do many things...but not see text with old eyes, not type with old fingers....
so I did not really have a good idea what the flow of the conversation was.

I will now drop back and read whats been going on and respond where helpful.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so free willnis not jusst the ability to make a choice......but that is part of it.


and free will is not just about feelings......but that is connected to it.


but its about being truly free of will.
to be truly free of force......to not be bound.....not just to feel free. but to truly be free.

this next post i go into more of what Free Will means to us and what it is and is not....for a lot of people claim things about the term that are simply not correct

[alanmolstad]

Free Will

Free = not a slave......

Will = the thinking mind


(more or less about the same definition I gave you at the start of this topic when i was first asked to define the term and i did right away....even when the hour was much too early to be thinking past getting some sleep)

[alanmolstad]

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
By this quote what I talking about is the tendency of many who hate the term "Free Will" to switch the definition around so that when I say "Free Will" they only hear "ability to make a choice"

They do this because they hate the term "Free Will" so much that they hope to get everyone to stop using the term by switching it over to mean something else that it actually does not mean.

But here I point out that it's not just about being able to make a choice between two things, for even animals have that simple ability.
You see, Free Will is all about the Freedom you have to make a choice that is not under some type of pressure.
the example I give is to think of a guy who walks into a bank and demands all the money.
At first glance we think this guy is a normal Bank Robber, and so treat him as someone who is guilty of breaking the law and so find him guilty.
But what if later we learn that the guy had been kidnapped and had a bomb strapped to his chest and was told that unless he goes into the bank and walks out with all the money he will get bown up along with everyone else in the bank?

Then in this case we understand that in this context the guy is "not guilty" because we understand that his decision to walk in and rob the bank was made "under duress".

What is the difference then?.....the difference is that we believe the person lacked "Free Will" to make a choice.
He still made a choice...he still walked into a bank and robbed it....
But we dont believe he is guilty of a crime because of a lack of Free Will to make a decision to rob the bank or not....

In other words, if I force your finger to pull a trigger, you are not responsible for the gun going off.





"It's about the freedom to choose and not being forced to decide one thing over the other."
In this quote I think Im talking about the reason we are held to answer for our actions.
The reason we are is that we have the freedom and the free will to decide for ourselves if we will believe or not.

The fact that there is a "Hell" means that we must have Free Will......

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
<SNIP>...

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

Then I submit that you are changing the definitions.

As to my previous point about free will and animals, I submit this as proof that I am correct.

[alanmolstad]

again,
My point is that some people try to maintain that Free Will is just the same as being able to make a simple decision.
But I argue against that limited understanding of the term because I don't believe it carries the full context of being truly "Free" that you need to keep in mind when you are talking about "FREE will"

I also point out that even animals have the ability to make simple decisions, yet we don't believe them to have Free Will due to the power of instinct over their whole lives.
This is why when i talk about the correct understanding of Free Will I always make sure people understand that it means to be truly "free' and not a "slave" of someone or something else that is pressuring you to decide one thing over another.