God as Spirit or flesh and bone

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
It states there is but one God--no others.

Originally Posted by Billyray
Great you are making progress. Since you are a polytheist then tell me who is this one God? Then tell me who are the others who are NOT a God?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 --1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."


If one were to believe the scriptures--it was God the Father. The "one lord" was Jesus Christ.

Was Paul a polytheist?

The NT writers, nor the Early Church Fathers, for the main, believed Jesus Christ was the "one God".

For them, God the Father was the only one God--and only God the Father. No other one God but Him.

Originally Posted by Billyray

so you don't believe Jesus is a God or the HS is a God?

I am stating what the NT writers believed concerning the "one God"--how are you relating that to whether I believe Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost is a God?

The LDS believe in the Godhead:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Ghost.


But you know that---we have discussed this several times now.

The NT writers believed that Jesus Christ was a God--but not the "one God". That designation was reserved for the Father only.

So--how do you explain Paul's designation of God the Father as the "one God"--separating out Jesus Christ within the same sentence as the "one Lord"?

If Jesus Christ and God the Father were the same God--surely Paul would have known it. It would be the perfect chance to designate Jesus Christ and God the Father as the "one God".

Paul let that opportunity p***, and not for no reason. And on more than one occasion did Paul do so:


Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Why?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I am stating what the NT writers believed

Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Why?

See how easy that was dberrie, just took out the Gods and made you a Baptist or something.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
I am stating what the NT writers believed

Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Why?

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

See how easy that was dberrie, just took out the Gods and made you a Baptist or something.

Baptist wouldn't list the "one God" as God the Father, and separate out Jesus Christ from that "one God"--into another separate designation--the "one Lord".

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Baptist wouldn't list the "one God" as God the Father, and separate out Jesus Christ from that "one God"--into another separate designation--the "one Lord".

There are three persons in the Godhead, The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost.
The simple way of putting it is, this, God The Father, Old Testament.
Jesus the Son, New Testament.
The Holy Ghost is what we have to direct us and lead us and comfort us in Christ Jesus, Amen!
Now see how easy that is?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I am stating what the NT writers believed concerning the "one God"--how are you relating that to whether I believe Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost is a God?

Because of what you said

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states there is but one God--no others.

If there is ONE God and no others can Jesus or the Holy Spirit be a God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because of what you said

If there is ONE God and no others can Jesus or the Holy Spirit be a God?

Of course--but not the "one God"--that designation was reserved for God the Father only in the NT.

It was the NT writers, and the ECF way of remaining a monotheist, and believing that more Gods existed than the Father. Which meant the object of their worship was God the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Tell me what this verse says.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states there is but one God--no others.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Of course--but not the "one God"--that designation was reserved for God the Father only in the NT.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Let's start over. Explain what Isaiah 43:10 means.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This doesn't make any sense to me. Let's start over. Explain what Isaiah 43:10 means.

It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.

If it was Jesus Christ that makes these statements--do you believe there was no God the Father? That Jesus Christ was formed before God the Father?

Billyray--there is one reality the faith alone have to come to--there were a number of Gods in the Hebrew Bible, found within the divine council, and also, including the Godhead--that is a fact.

And the NT writers, and the ECF both separated out God the Father as the "one God"--and Jesus Christ as the "one Lord".

Sorry that does not collate with the faith alone theology--but very little does, when comparing the Bible and faith alone theology.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you come to that conclusion from this verse?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
It means just what Michael Heiser points out:


4. The denial statements of Isaiah and elsewhere ("there is no god beside me") do not cons***ute denials of the existence of other ʾĕlōhîm. Rather, they are statements of Yahweh's incomparability.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you come to that conclusion from this verse?

As Michael Heiser points out:

2. The term monotheism is inadequate to describe what it is Israel believed about God and the members of his council. As the text explicitly says, there are other ʾĕlōhîm.


Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

How did Jesus have a God and Father--and there was none besides Him?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

As Michael Heiser points out:

2. The term monotheism is inadequate to describe what it is Israel believed about God and the members of his council. As the text explicitly says, there are other ʾĕlōhîm.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that there are other gods from this verse. Thus far you have not done so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons. So when Christ speaks about one God that would include the three persons.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons.

You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?

Where in the Bible do you see the three that make up the Godhead specifically listed as the "one God"?

There are scriptures that specifically list the composition of them "one God"--and it does not include Jesus Christ:

1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

So when Christ speaks about one God that would include the three persons.

Christ did not claim to be the same person as God the Father. His claim was that God the Father was His God and Father:

St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Which was confirmed by Peter:

1 Peter1:3--"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

That was the NT belief of the Godhead--and the ECF.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?

No it doesn't make sense because there is one God in three persons. So if Jesus is speaking it doesn't mean that there is no longer the Father and the Son and the three persons of the single God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
Could you explain how Jesus Christ makes the statement there was no God formed before Him--and the existence of God the Father?

Originally Posted by Billyray
Your question doesn't really make sense because the one God is in three persons.

dberrie----You mean it does not make sense to those of the faith alone theology?

Where in the Bible do you see the three that make up the Godhead specifically listed as the "one God"?

There are scriptures that specifically list the composition of them "one God"--and it does not include Jesus Christ:

1 Cor8:6--"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Originally Posted by Billyray

No it doesn't make sense because there is one God in three persons.

Again--where in the Biblical text does it list three persons as the "one God"?

There are scriptures that specifically defines who the "one God" is--and it does not list but one person there--God the Father:

Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."


Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?

Could you please show us anywhere it specifically designates all three persons as the "one God"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?

Sure it is a way to distinguish the different members of the Trinity.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 -- Again--where in the Biblical text does it list three persons as the "one God"?

There are scriptures that specifically defines who the "one God" is--and it does not list but one person there--God the Father:

Ephesians4:4-6--"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Could you explain for us how this scripture separates out Jesus Christ from God the Father, as pertaining to the "one God", and designates only God the Father as the "one God"--and your premise be true concerning three persons in the "one God"?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure it is a way to distinguish the different members of the Trinity.

You are right--and the NT distinguishes only God the Father as the "one God".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You are right--and the NT distinguishes only God the Father as the "one God".

And the Son as "one LORD" who is the second person of the Trinity.

[dberrie2000]

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000
You are right--and the NT distinguishes only God the Father as the "one God".

Originally Posted by Billyray

And the Son as "one LORD" who is the second person of the Trinity.

The second personage of the Godhead--the term "Trinity" is not found within the Bible.


The Biblical Term Godhead

Versus the Term "Trinity"

by Bob Allgood

An Effort To Contend For The Faith

Once Delivered Unto The Saints




All three of these declarations are very good, but I personally prefer the first two over the last. I could not help but notice that each of the statements became more condensed and less elaborate about the attributes of the Godhead. Is this a sign of the times? In some our modern day Articles of Faith the statements of belief are so concise that it is hard to determine exactly what the Primitive Baptists authors are trying to say or really believe. To illustrate this I will quote from a common Articles of Faith I have seen copied (without change) and used in Colorado and NM:

" We believe in one true and living God and the trinity of persons in the Godhead - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and yet not three but one God ".

I'll be as kind as possible, but in my opinion, this last declaration is a weak and confusing statement about the Godhead. It is weak because there are no Biblical comments about the attributes of God. It is confusing because it says "We believe in -- God and the trinity of persons in the Godhead". The phrase "trinity of persons in the Godhead" is unbiblical terminology which conflicts with and/or directly contradicts Scripture. It shows how easily confusion and error can get into our doctrine through ignorance, apathy, slothfulness and/or failure to "study and rightly divide the word of truth". I have the "little white book" from which this statement was taken word for word and p***ed on to at least three churches. In this we can see how the error of one can afflict others. As Solomon said, "Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The second personage of the Godhead--the term "Trinity" is not found within the Bible.

Sure it is a way to distinguisthe Father from the Son in those verses.

Can "Lord" refer to the Father in some verses and the Son in other verses?

Can "God" refer to the Father in some verses and the Son in other verses?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
The second personage of the Godhead--the term "Trinity" is not found within the Bible.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure it is a way to distinguisthe Father from the Son in those verses.

Not "Trinity". That term is not found within the Bible.

Can "Lord" refer to the Father in some verses and the Son in other verses?

Can "God" refer to the Father in some verses and the Son in other verses?

Well, of course. You don't think Christ would use the term "Gods" to designate those whom the word of God came--and it not also be applied to His own self? The term "Lord" was used to denote both the Father and the Son also.

But the term "one God" is never used to denote Jesus Christ in the NT--only God the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But the term "one God" is never used to denote Jesus Christ in the NT--only God the Father.

But the term "God" can be used for the Father or the Son and the term "Lord" can be used for the Father or the Son. These verses are using each to distinguish between the Father and the Son.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
But the term "one God" is never used to denote Jesus Christ in the NT--only God the Father.

Originally Posted by Billyray

But the term "God" can be used for the Father or the Son

But that is also true for all the Sons of God that comprise the divinity of the divine council--they were all referred to as "Elohim".

They all took on the ***le "God" or "Gods".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is also true for all the Sons of God that comprise the divinity of the divine council--they were all referred to as "Elohim".

So why do you take issue when God is used for the Father and Lord is use for the Son in the verses that you have brought up?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
But that is also true for all the Sons of God that comprise the divinity of the divine council--they were all referred to as "Elohim".

Originally Posted by Billyray

So why do you take issue when God is used for the Father and Lord is use for the Son in the verses that you have brought up?

Duh! I don't take issue with that--only when someone tries to pawn on me they were the same God. They were not the same Gods within the council.

They were all referred to as Elohim, or the sons of God--but that is a designation ***le, not a personal identification.