My daughter came into town yesterday. [Archive] - Page 2

John T

04-24-2014, 09:33 AM

Phoenix, that is, basically, my thinking. I would only amend that I do believe God is absolutely sovereign, but he does not, generally, exercise his sovereignty over man, especially, in regards to salvation. He desires that we all come to him and, I believe, he does draw us all...all the time...but, not all are receptive, and even though he is sovereign, he does allow individual agency.
As far as it goes in that statement, it is a Biblicaly-correct statement

He will not "force" us to come to him, but he will "aid" us, in coming to him, if we ask and desire it.
That is also true

Calvinists believe that God's people have been chosen (by God) before the foundation of the earth and they had no say in it, whatsoever.
No, it is NOT just Calvinists who believe that, it is ALL people who read and believe the Bible:
.

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined in eternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ

It was totally God's doing. Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.
That is a heresy called "double predestination" and the section below explains why:

This is the prologue or the explanation of Paul's position:
.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
.
This is the condition of the natural man, blinded
.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This is the reaction of God, looking at the problem from His perspective; He let mankind to continue their rebellion (see above)
.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

These are the fruits of their rebellion:
.

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

.
There you have it, Libby. You asked a question, and I gave you the answers from the Bible, and in their context .

So the next step is to ask you if you accept this, what the Bible says, or are you going to keep on tilting at windmills calling them John Calvin?

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 09:48 AM

That is a heresy called "double predestination" and the section below explains why:

.........or are you going to keep on tilting at windmills calling them John Calvin?

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2029-A-quot-what-if-quot-question-for-critics/page18
see post # 437

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 10:19 AM

James Banta

04-24-2014, 10:48 AM

John, perhaps if you listen to this recording..(start at the 6:00 point) by Walter Martin you might have better luck showing Jim what is Calvin's error...

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2013/04/21/the-mystery-of-predestination

The sound in my computer doesn't work.. I don't know what's wrong with it.. I haven't hundreds of $$$ to find out.. Either tell me or not.. but I can't hear what the snipets of data you want me to see..

I have many friends, pastors and churches that appreciate our ministry from those circles inside Christianity. I also have many good friends in ministry and in congregations who do not believe in the "Five Points" but again, this set of doctrines does not redeem not excuse anyone. It is our view of Christ and our acceptance of His finished work which saves us.

I believe that God is completely sovereign and that He knows exactly who will, in the end, be saved.(http://www.ericbarger.com/calvinvsarminian.htm)

That is what I have been saying all along..

It is not God's perfect will that any be lost and yet He will not force Himself on anyone. He stands at the door and knocks.. He doesn't kick the door in (Rev 3:20). I believe it is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace that is your tripping point.. It is answered for me in God's omniscience.. He knows exactly who will, in the end, be saved. In that knowledge it is proper to say that those who believe in the Traditional Biblical Jesus are predestined to life, those that deny Him are predestined to God's wrath in the Lake of Fire..

Remember it is our view of Christ (We can't set up a garden gnome out in our back yards and call it Jesus and expect salvation because we believe in "Jesus") and our acceptance of His finished work on the cross which saves us. While I don't disbelieve anyone is NOT a Christian because they reject Calvinism, I hate having Calvinism used as a tool to doubt my faith.. I don't doubt Libby faith or her Arminian beliefs I doubt them because she has supported those that teach three Gods, has turned to the philosophy of the eastern cults to answers her questions about God and salvation while repeatedly attacked those that stand up for the True God and salvation By God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING. IHS jim

Libby

04-24-2014, 11:05 AM

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John. I just do not accept the Calvinist interpretation of them, which has God choosing people who have not chosen him (in Calvinism they had no choice). I don't accept Calvin's "irresistable grace" (the "I" in TULIP) and I don't accept the idea that God chose people, arbitrarily, who didn't choose Him, until he forced it (total depravity - the "T" in TULIP).

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose Him.

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 11:23 AM

The sound in my computer doesn't work..

Thank God they got computers at the library.....

Thats where I always end up when I got computer issues...all you need there is a set of head phones and you are good to go...

John T

04-24-2014, 06:13 PM

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John.

<SNIP>

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose Him.

What you posted is utterly contradictory to what the Scripture itself says. Please read ALL of this below, especially the explanation:
,

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined ineternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ

If you fully accep;t the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible Word to us humans, then you have any right to treat it like a Chinese restaurant menu where youcfhoose some from column A and some from column B. I do not believe that you are intentionally doing that, but that seems to be an accurate picture of the results you get.

Here is a little secret, just between us, OK? You do not have to accept the entire TULIP if you only believe that only one or two are an accurate representation of what the Bible says.

Secret 2: You do not have to understand the depths of a doctrine to say that it is true. In the example above, it is setting forth the U in the TULIP meaning Unconditional Election.

As a result of both of those secrets, i officially give you my permission to believe any of the parts of the TULIP that you want, and I will not tell anyone, either!

Libby

04-24-2014, 06:32 PM

What you posted is utterly contradictory to what the Scripture itself says. Please read ALL of this below, especially the explanation:
,

Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

verse 3 says The blessing is salvation
verse 4 says The blessing was determined ineternity
verse 4b says The purpose of the blessing is make us what we are not, namely holy and blameless before God
verse 5 says That it was pleasing to Jesus to adopt us in the same manner that children are adopted
verse 6 says That Jesus Christ alone gets the credit for this
verse 7 says That we are ONLY saved by Jesus Christ
verse 8 says That this adoption was done to us in all the wisdom and prudence of Jesus Christ

If you fully accep;t the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible Word to us humans, then you have any right to treat it like a Chinese restaurant menu where youcfhoose some from column A and some from column B. I do not believe that you are intentionally doing that, but that seems to be an accurate picture of the results you get.

Here is a little secret, just between us, OK? You do not have to accept the entire TULIP if you only believe that only one or two are an accurate representation of what the Bible says.

Secret 2: You do not have to understand the depths of a doctrine to say that it is true. In the example above, it is setting forth the U in the TULIP meaning Unconditional Election.

As a result of both of those secrets, i officially give you my permission to believe any of the parts of the TULIP that you want, and I will not tell anyone, either!

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.

alanmolstad

04-24-2014, 06:35 PM

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. . LOL, You tell em girl!

James Banta

04-24-2014, 09:03 PM

Thank God they got computers at the library.....

Thats where I always end up when I got computer issues...all you need there is a set of head phones and you are good to go...

I have a computer here that you can communicate with me on.. If Walter Martin disagreed with anything I have said here it shouldn't be hard to find a written statement. IHS jim

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:46 PM

God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.
Here is a free will question for you as it pertains to this subject. Since God knows what you will do tomorrow are you free to change those actions?

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:49 PM

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:54 PM

Which means, it was also God's doing that all the rest are destined to hell.
Another statement that shows your lack of understanding of Calvinism. People go to hell because they disobey God's commandments.

Billyray

04-24-2014, 10:56 PM

John 6:7 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Libby you never did tell me what a person must do in order for the Father to give him to the Son. Can you clarify that for me?

Libby

04-25-2014, 01:00 AM

Another statement that shows your lack of understanding of Calvinism. People go to hell because they disobey God's commandments.

But, a loving God would not discriminate and give only a "chosen few" the opportunity to turn to him and be saved. The Calvinist "god" is neither loving nor just.

Libby

04-25-2014, 01:01 AM

Libby

04-25-2014, 01:03 AM

Here is a free will question for you as it pertains to this subject. Since God knows what you will do tomorrow are you free to change those actions?

Yes. If I change my mind, God will know that, as well.

Libby

04-25-2014, 01:04 AM

Why don't you accept these verses Libby? Does it go against what YOU think is fair or not fair?

I do accept them. I just don't accept YOUR interpretation of them.

John T

04-25-2014, 06:27 AM

Well, gee whiz, thanks, John. lol

And, for the record, nothing I stated above contradicts this scripture. God is outside of space and time, so he knows everything all at once.

Where in the Bible can you find this sort of statement?

Originally Posted by Libby http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155432#post155432)

Of course, I accept the Bible verses, John.

<SNIP>

But, yes, I do accept those verses and I do believe that God, who knows everything, knows who will choose him and who will not. He, therefore, chooses those who will choose

Please cite the book, chapter and verse for the statement you make, and which I colored bold blue.

Please demonstrate where in my post, to which you replied "Gee Whiz" where your statement in bold blue is supported.

Of course you are en***led to your own heresy oops, I mean beliefs! (just kidding! :p ) However, I am just as en***led to ask if your belief founded on your personal convictions about the nature of God (which is also OK) or if it is based on what Scripture says alone. If you choose the former, and acknowledge that your beliefs about God are not found in Scripture that will not harm your salvation; and all that means is that your thought processes and theology are "works in progress".

If you choose the latter then we will continue to discuss your understanding of Scripture, especially the part that you believe that says in effect that God's predestination is determined by man's actions: He, therefore, chooses those who will choose .

Have a great day!

Libby

04-25-2014, 11:43 AM

Where in the Bible can you find this sort of statement?

I refer you to disciple's post on another thread. It would be easier if we had this discussion all on one thread.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2029-A-quot-what-if-quot-question-for-critics&p=155481&viewfull=1#post155481

Of course you are en***led to your own heresy oops, I mean beliefs! (just kidding! :p ) However, I am just as en***led to ask if your belief founded on your personal convictions about the nature of God (which is also OK) or if it is based on what Scripture says alone. If you choose the former, and acknowledge that your beliefs about God are not found in Scripture that will not harm your salvation; and all that means is that your thought processes and theology are "works in progress".

I admit to being a work in progress (as all of us are), but I also know that my beliefs can be supported by scripture. Are you familiar with the Armininan side of things, John?

If you choose the latter then we will continue to discuss your understanding of Scripture, especially the part that you believe that says in effect that God's predestination is determined by man's actions: He, therefore, chooses those who will choose .

Logically, I think it has to be that way, at least, to some degree. Otherwise, we are making God responsible for allowing many to go to hell, with absolutely no hope of being saved. That is not the behavior of a Good and Loving (and Just) God. A God who weeps over Jerusalem's unbelief.

Have a great day!

Thank you. Same to you.

John T

04-25-2014, 09:53 PM

I refer you to disciple's post on another thread. It would be easier if we had this discussion all on one thread.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?2029-A-quot-what-if-quot-question-for-critics&p=155481&viewfull=1#post155481

I admit to being a work in progress (as all of us are), but I also know that my beliefs can be supported by scripture. Are you familiar with the Armininan side of things, John?

Logically, I think it has to be that way, at least, to some degree. Otherwise, we are making God responsible for allowing many to go to hell, with absolutely no hope of being saved. That is not the behavior of a Good and Loving (and Just) God. A God who weeps over Jerusalem's unbelief.

Thank you. Same to you.

For the record, I HATE THE CALVINISM vs ARMINIANISM battles. There is too much heat, and little light there. The only "winner" is the Enemy of our souls.

I attended a seminary that was very Reformed, and one day in Middler Theology we had a fellow student, a senior step in for Dr. Rudolf. I do not know anything about his lecture excepting that a part of it was on the final exam. This student, several years my junior was a hyper Calvinist, and I just sat and endured his pontificating about the Apostle Paul. Finally, in a state of exuberance, he made the statement "Paul was a Calvinist" and I could bear it no longer.

I waited until there was a break in his lecture, and I put on my "innocent face" and I said "You said that 'Paul was a Calvinist' is that correct?" I paaused waiting for his nod and saying "Yes", then I quietly said, "I always thought that he was an Apostle." The entire room went silent for 30 seconds and then he resumed his lecture as if I did not just cut him off at his knees.

My point to you is that I do not believe that you can support the position that you stated in light of the fact that Ephesians 1:4 makes no equivocation as to the fact that all believers were chosen in Christ, and predestinated before the foundation of the world. But believing that does not alter the fact that there also some people who reject having anything to do with God for one specious reason, or another.

The example of Pharaoh and Moses is a good discussion of the issue. Pharaoh first rejected God, and then God hardened his heart; from Scripture that is abundantly clear, and that also seems to be the order of things in Scripture with other people, also.

So it seems to me (and I reserve the right to be wrong) is that predestination is only for the saved, and human will is only for those who reject Jesus Christ. Look at what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ in the Bible:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Therein lies the explanation where those who reject Christ and His salvation have no valid reason for doing so. That also makes a fence where the hyper Calvinist cannot go without violating Scripture

To sum it up, I believe that to make an "either/or" choice about one's salvation is surely not a Christ-honoring situation, As a result, I believe that to one degree or another it is "both...and". Our problem comes when we wish to ***ign proportions to human will or to sovereign predestination. So we must leave things somewhat unsettled. All I know is that I am saved by grace, and kept in my salvation in the same manner.

Can you go with that?

alanmolstad

04-25-2014, 10:29 PM

I tend to think as did Walter Martin,,,,,,there is no no way to understand how free will and god's role mix,,,,,,they just do

James Banta

04-26-2014, 09:51 AM

I tend to think as did Walter Martin,,,,,,there is no no way to understand how free will and god's role mix,,,,,,they just do

I see so you don't really deny God's hand in the mix and therefor you can't deny the teaching of Calvinism 100%.. All you know is that you don't know how it works.. It does does.. Ok I can go along with that.. Are we still friends? IHS jim

James Banta

04-26-2014, 09:57 AM

But, a loving God would not discriminate and give only a "chosen few" the opportunity to turn to him and be saved. The Calvinist "god" is neither loving nor just.

You call God unjust for having the knowledge of who will respond to His offered grace through faith in Jesus? Choosing those for life that He knows will accept that offer? Are you limiting God power to have that knowledge? In that knowledge you call God unjust, and hateful.. God help you.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-26-2014, 10:04 AM

I dont have the slightest idea.

I never heard of Campbellites and have no connection to groups that are ***ociated with it.
Hence Apologette's introduction of the idea seems a bit weird to me..

Sometimes Alan, I dont think you have enough education of the restorationist movement to hold a discussion with the LDS.. They aren't just a revivalist they believe the whole of the Church fell and must be completely restored. Christians on the other had believe Jesus when He said that He would be with us always. Yes some error can creep in that is why we must always be revivalist. Constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to conduct His work within us and His Church, conforming us to the image of Jesus.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-26-2014, 11:18 AM

Sometimes Alan, I dont think you have enough education of the restorationist movement to hold a discussion with the LDS.. They aren't just a revivalist they believe the whole of the Church fell and must be completely restored. Christians on the other had believe Jesus when He said that He would be with us always. Yes some error can creep in that is why we must always be revivalist. Constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to conduct His work within us and His Church, conforming us to the image of Jesus.. IHS jim

the bible I know.....
But where the lady got this Campbellites stuff? ....there is the mystery...:rolleyes:

alanmolstad

04-26-2014, 11:21 AM

I see so you don't really deny God's hand in the mix and therefor you can't deny the teaching of Calvinism 100%.. All you know is that you don't know how it works.. It does does.. Ok I can go along with that.. Are we still friends? IHS jim

I believe my position is the same as Walter Martin's.....

Some of the 5 points are correct or close enough..
Others are wrong no matter how you look at them......

Billyray

04-26-2014, 01:00 PM

I believe my position is the same as Walter Martin's.....

What about your position as it relates to the Bible. Isn't that suppose to be the standard?

Libby

04-26-2014, 05:24 PM

For the record, I HATE THE CALVINISM vs ARMINIANISM battles. There is too much heat, and little light there. The only "winner" is the Enemy of our souls.

I attended a seminary that was very Reformed, and one day in Middler Theology we had a fellow student, a senior step in for Dr. Rudolf. I do not know anything about his lecture excepting that a part of it was on the final exam. This student, several years my junior was a hyper Calvinist, and I just sat and endured his pontificating about the Apostle Paul. Finally, in a state of exuberance, he made the statement "Paul was a Calvinist" and I could bear it no longer.

I waited until there was a break in his lecture, and I put on my "innocent face" and I said "You said that 'Paul was a Calvinist' is that correct?" I paaused waiting for his nod and saying "Yes", then I quietly said, "I always thought that he was an Apostle." The entire room went silent for 30 seconds and then he resumed his lecture as if I did not just cut him off at his knees.

My point to you is that I do not believe that you can support the position that you stated in light of the fact that Ephesians 1:4 makes no equivocation as to the fact that all believers were chosen in Christ, and predestinated before the foundation of the world. But believing that does not alter the fact that there also some people who reject having anything to do with God for one specious reason, or another.

The example of Pharaoh and Moses is a good discussion of the issue. Pharaoh first rejected God, and then God hardened his heart; from Scripture that is abundantly clear, and that also seems to be the order of things in Scripture with other people, also.

So it seems to me (and I reserve the right to be wrong) is that predestination is only for the saved, and human will is only for those who reject Jesus Christ. Look at what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ in the Bible:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Therein lies the explanation where those who reject Christ and His salvation have no valid reason for doing so. That also makes a fence where the hyper Calvinist cannot go without violating Scripture

To sum it up, I believe that to make an "either/or" choice about one's salvation is surely not a Christ-honoring situation, As a result, I believe that to one degree or another it is "both...and". Our problem comes when we wish to ***ign proportions to human will or to sovereign predestination. So we must leave things somewhat unsettled. All I know is that I am saved by grace, and kept in my salvation in the same manner.

Can you go with that?

A lot of the Calvinist doctrine is based on Paul's writings (not Jesus) which is another good reason to rethink it.

I can much easier go with the idea of predestination vs free will, as a mystery, than to decide it is settled on the Calvinist side.

I really think the argument gets weighed down, so to speak, in the "time space" continuum. God knows everything, from beginning to end. We do not. Which makes some things appear differently to us (in time) than it does to God.

alanmolstad

04-26-2014, 05:26 PM

What about your position as it relates to the Bible. Isn't that suppose to be the standard?

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

James Banta

04-27-2014, 09:08 AM

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

I guess this has been spun into an anti Calvinism thread instead of being a thread about sin being sin. I loved Walter Martin and still highly respect His memory but like you, like me he was a man and capable of forming opinions that may or may not align with scripture.. Just because we have differences about when a person is called by God for salvation doesn't change the FACT that He saved us by His grace through Faith in Jesus.. It doesn't change the fact that the Lord our God in one LORD..That He has always been God, never has He ever laid His Godhood down. Even in His mortal ministry Jesus was still God.. Does it matter all that much if a person believers that only those the Father call come to Jesus? Does it matter that much that the Father always knew those that would come and if He predestined all those He foreknew to life and all others He destined to His wrath? You can believe that He calls all men and gives salvation to only those that respond if you wish.. I personally see little difference between these two points. It's not worth all this argument. That would be a Martinistic statement. IHS jim

RealFakeHair

04-27-2014, 10:01 AM

gosh i love it when they think they can go toe to toe with Martin.......

My hair is better looking than his. How's that for toe to toe?

James Banta

04-27-2014, 12:10 PM

My hair is better looking than his. How's that for toe to toe?

Maybe you paid more for yours than he did.. heheheh IHS jim

alanmolstad

04-27-2014, 12:37 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLzvPus6Zg

right around the 6:00 point we see Walter use the very same argument that i have used here many times.

Its nice for me to learn that the things I remember hearing back in the 1990s....are confirmed.

Libby

04-27-2014, 02:22 PM

I've only listened to that part, Alan, but I so totally agree with him, there. Will listen to the rest of it later. We just got back from church and now we're off to see a movie. "Heaven is for real"

alanmolstad

04-27-2014, 04:20 PM

I've only listened to that part, Alan, but I so totally agree with him, there. Will listen to the rest of it later. We just got back from church and now we're off to see a movie. "Heaven is for real"

i hope you come back and give us your review..

Libby

04-27-2014, 08:52 PM

i hope you come back and give us your review..

A review of the movie, you mean? It was great! Very interesting and very touching story. I highly recommend it.

We also went to see an International Children's choir, at our church, this evening, and I was telling the Pastor about how good the movie was, and he said the book was even better. A lot more details in the book. So, I might download that on my Kindle.

James Banta

04-27-2014, 09:03 PM

if you were to listen to the recording, you would not need to ask questions that Walter martin talks about in great detail.......

Do you really think I have ever for one moment said that there is no predestined text?.....

You just don't believe it? How can we be predestined for life or for ****ation if Calvinism is so wrong? IHS jim

Libby

04-27-2014, 09:22 PM

I really wish you could listen to Walter Martin's video, above, James. He explains it so well. He said, he rejects Calvin's argument simply on the basis that it is inconsistent with the character of God. Which is exactly what I have been saying for years, now.

I used to dislike Dr. Martin, based on some things I had heard about him, but in listening to his teaching and explanations, I have to say, he is quite an extraordinary teacher. He certainly knows the Bible backwards an forwards.

Libby

04-27-2014, 09:29 PM

You call God unjust for having the knowledge of who will respond to His offered grace through faith in Jesus? Choosing those for life that He knows will accept that offer? Are you limiting God power to have that knowledge? In that knowledge you call God unjust, and hateful.. God help you.. IHS jim

No, to all of your questions (and these are things that I have never said). I do wish you could refrain from putting words in my mouth, which I have never, ever typed and do not believe.

God is NOT unjust, as I have said, many, many times, which is why he would not pick and choose "some" without giving everyone an opportunity. He chooses those who answer his call. Yes, he knows who those people are, before the foundation of the world. He is omnicient; he knows ALL, as I have said, many, many times before. So, why would you ask me those questions and accuse me of "hating God"??? False witness, James.

James Banta

04-27-2014, 10:10 PM

No, to all of your questions (and these are things that I have never said). I do wish you could refrain from putting words in my mouth, which I have never, ever typed and do not believe.

God is NOT unjust, as I have said, many, many times, which is why he would not pick and choose "some" without giving everyone an opportunity. He chooses those who answer his call. Yes, he knows who those people are, before the foundation of the world. He is omnicient; he knows ALL, as I have said, many, many times before. So, why would you ask me those questions and accuse me of "hating God"??? False witness, James.

One reason and one reason only.. You deny the doctrine I see in God's foreknowledge.. That He has predestined some to eternal life and many to ****ation in the lake of fire.. That is all limited atonement and Irresistible grace are.. If you don't like the words then use others just don't judge me or others that use those words to describe God's omniscience.. IHS jim

James Banta

04-27-2014, 10:14 PM

She isn't limiting God's KNOWLEDGE. She is recognizing that God limits His own CHOICES. He knows HOW to boss everyone around so they would always do what He would LIKE them to do, but He doesn't do that because He knows it would go against His plan. So it's not a matter of limited knowledge.

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

Libby

04-27-2014, 10:34 PM

One reason and one reason only.. You deny the doctrine I see in God's foreknowledge.. That He has predestined some to eternal life and many to ****ation in the lake of fire.. That is all limited atonement and Irresistible grace are.. If you don't like the words then use others just don't judge me or others that use those words to describe God's omniscience.. IHS jim

From now on, when you "critique" my posts, James, please quote me. That way you won't inadvertently become a false witness, by trying to interpret what I'm saying. Don't "guess" at what I'm saying (I'm usually pretty plain spoken)...just quote me and ask questions, if you don't understand.

I don't deny predestination or foreknowledge. If you were really listening to me, I think you would find that we pretty much agree on this issue, because I have seen you say, multiple times, that God knows who will choose Him. He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.

P.S. You are the only one here who consistently misunderstands what I (and others!) are saying. The problem is with you, James.

Phoenix

04-27-2014, 10:34 PM

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

Why argue over it? If I join Libby and Alan in saying that Walter Martin is right on this issue and you are not, will you go back to saying it's not worth arguing over?

Libby

04-27-2014, 10:35 PM

The funny thing is, I think James also agrees with you, me and Alan. He just hasn't figured it out, yet. :)

Billyray

04-27-2014, 10:53 PM

I really wish you could listen to Walter Martin's video, above, James. He explains it so well. He said, he rejects Calvin's argument simply on the basis that it is inconsistent with the character of God. Which is exactly what I have been saying for years, now.

Let's talk about this issue a little bit Libby.

God gives us commandments to follow and we each have a choice to either obey those commandments or disobey them. Agree or disagree?

Billyray

04-27-2014, 10:56 PM

I don't deny predestination or foreknowledge. If you were really listening to me, I think you would find that we pretty much agree on this issue, because I have seen you say, multiple times, that God knows who will choose Him. He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.

Since you believe in "predestination or foreknowledge" then you also must hold the position that there is a select group of people who will be saved and another select group of people that will not be saved and that each group is fixed from before the foundation of the world i.e. before anyone of us is even born. Agree?

Billyray

04-27-2014, 11:01 PM

He, therefore chooses (predestines) those whom he already knows will choose Him.
Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

alanmolstad

04-28-2014, 04:34 AM

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

You ask Libby a question about views that actually only belong to James!

On the other hand, James asks Libby to defend ideas that she has not advanced!

Billy, both you and James are painting the non-Calvinist position with a false brush.....you are questioning ideas that are unfounded, you are objecting to things no one is talking about...

In the recording of Walter Martin where he talks about the many false ideas that Calvin taught, Walter also talks about a few of the false ideas that modern Calvinists teach.
One of these false ideas is to teach that God knew who to predestine by looking into the future and learning who of mankind would finally believe in Christ, and that is how God knew who to predestine from the beginning of time.

Walter Martin says that this answer will cause the Calvinist to smile and tell everyone "They have figured it out!"

Well guess what?...they have not figured out anything!

All they have done is invent their own made-up answer to a question that cant be answered*.....by the use of a answer that is not found in the Bible and cant be supported by Scripture at all.

(* The bible simply does not answer the question about why some are predestined to heaven. The Bible does not tell us on what grounds God does things like this. It's an unknown)

alanmolstad

04-28-2014, 05:04 AM

You doubt the doctrine of predestination do you not? That is a denial of God's foreknowledge. As long as there are those that deny God's power I will call them on such a teaching.. IHS jim

actually what I see you doing is inventing your own private meanings to things, and then attacking other people when they cast doubt on your private views.

James, the bible teaches that for unknown reason or reasons, the people that come to believe in Christ are said to have been predestined to this fate from the beginning.

That is what the bible clearly teaches.

The bible does not teach that God predestined some to hell.

Rather in fact, the Bible clearly goes out of its way to teach that God has it in his mind that all who are born come to have faith in Christ....that no person be condemned to Hell.....that God so loved the "Whole World"...not just some of it...

That when Christ was lifted up on the cross he drew "all men" to himself......all of us...the good and the bad, the believers and the nonbelievers.

James Banta

04-29-2014, 11:02 AM

Why argue over it? If I join Libby and Alan in saying that Walter Martin is right on this issue and you are not, will you go back to saying it's not worth arguing over?

You are free to say what ever you feel is right.. I am not the moderator here.. I am done discussing Calvinism.. I give up they win.. Calvinism is evil and if a person believes in it's tenets they will go to hell.. God can't possible know who will be saved and who will be ****ed.. He hasn't the power to see the future. He can barely remember parts of the past. IHS jim

Billyray

04-29-2014, 11:24 AM

You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

BigJulie

04-29-2014, 11:50 AM

You and James are soooooooooooo screwed up!

Welcome to my world ;)

Billyray

04-29-2014, 11:59 AM

Welcome to my world ;)
It is easy to name call but when the rubber meets the road and you actually have to back up your position from the entire Bible--not just bits and pieces--you can't do so. Right BigJ?

BigJulie

04-29-2014, 01:36 PM

It is easy to name call but when the rubber meets the road and you actually have to back up your position from the entire Bible--not just bits and pieces--you can't do so. Right BigJ?

Who is name calling? I am merely pointing out that he now gets to deal with the frustration of those who do not see the Bible the same way he does and he can talk until he is blue in the face to explain and they don't see. I have dealt with this many times. I am merely consoling him to say I understand.

Libby

04-29-2014, 01:44 PM

You are free to say what ever you feel is right.. I am not the moderator here.. I am done discussing Calvinism.. I give up they win.. Calvinism is evil and if a person believes in it's tenets they will go to hell.. God can't possible know who will be saved and who will be ****ed.. He hasn't the power to see the future. He can barely remember parts of the past. IHS jim

See, this is exactly what Alan is talking about, when he says you argue against positions that no one has ever held. Not one person here has said that God is not omniscient and can't see the future. No one.

Billyray

04-29-2014, 01:49 PM

Who is name calling? I am merely pointing out that he now gets to deal with the frustration of those who do not see the Bible the same way he does and he can talk until he is blue in the face to explain and they don't see. I have dealt with this many times. I am merely consoling him to say I understand.
But Alan doesn't refute us with the Bible, nor do you. You simply ignore the many verses we have given you and then you jump to other verses. As I said before you can't pick and choose which verses you like and disregard the others. If you erase all of the parts of the Bible that you would like erased then sure I would agree with your position. But I can't ignore all of those verses because they are God's word and they weren't put there to be ignored.

Billyray

04-29-2014, 01:53 PM

See, this is exactly what Alan is talking about, when he says you argue against positions that no one has ever held. Not one person here has said that God is not omniscient and can't see the future. No one.
So your position is that there is a fixed group of individuals will be saved and a fixed group of individuals who will not be saved and these groups are fixed prior to any of these individuals were even born? Is that a correct ***essment of your position as it relates to predestination/election?

Libby

04-29-2014, 01:54 PM

Let's talk about this issue a little bit Libby.

God gives us commandments to follow and we each have a choice to either obey those commandments or disobey them. Agree or disagree?

I agree...but, do you? I think the issue is more about desire than choice. We've been through this before, Billy.

I agree that our desires are of the flesh, until God starts drawing us. I think where we differ is in what that "drawing" means. I believe we still have the ability to turn away, even when God is drawing us. We have a true choice...to respond or not...and that God draws us all.

Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that whomever God draws will come to him..and that, it is the actual drawing, that changes man's heart, allowing him to choose God. You believe this to be true for a select few. God only draws those whom He knows will, positively, come to him.

Libby

04-29-2014, 02:00 PM

So your position is that there is a fixed group of individuals will be saved and a fixed group of individuals who will not be saved and these groups are fixed prior to any of these individuals were even born? Is that a correct ***essment of your position as it relates to predestination/election?

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.

Billyray

04-29-2014, 02:05 PM

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.
So a person is either saved or unsaved before that person is even born and there is not chance that this will ever change. This is your position. Correct?

Billyray

04-29-2014, 02:10 PM

Yes, that is the case. But, we differ in how that all comes about. And, I think it's a pretty important difference, because free will and "ability" are the determining factors in whether or not man can "justly" be held accountable for his actions.
Your main issue seems to be accountability so let's look at that for a minute.

1 . We are all given commandments to follow

2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments

3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.

Do you agree or disagree with the statements above?

alanmolstad

04-29-2014, 04:03 PM

alanmolstad

04-29-2014, 04:05 PM

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him? Note it never says this in Romans 8.

Julie.....he just goes and goes....LOL

What was the name of that one guy who attacked windmills because he thought they were something else?....

Libby

04-29-2014, 04:36 PM

Your main issue seems to be accountability so let's look at that for a minute.

1 . We are all given commandments to follow

I don't know that we are all "given commandments". I believe we are born with a rudimentary understanding of right from wrong (which is a part of "God's image" in us).

2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments

I believe we have the "ability" and often even the "desire" to do good, at times.

3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.

We are responsible, because we do have a "true" choice. We would not be responsible, if we had no real ability to exercise our free will. If our will were "blinded" or "dead", in part or in full, then how could we be held responsible?

Libby

04-29-2014, 04:38 PM

So a person is either saved or unsaved before that person is even born and there is not chance that this will ever change. This is your position. Correct?

I would never put it that way. Does God know who will come to him? If he is omniscient, then yes, he does. And, yes, he does know who will choose him, even before they are born.

alanmolstad

04-29-2014, 04:50 PM

I would never put it that way. Does God know who will come to him? If he is omniscient, then yes, he does. And, yes, he does know who will choose him, even before they are born.

the beauty of God's system is that it works right along side our Free Will...
God never has to remove a person's free will in order to predestine them to glory....

Phoenix

04-29-2014, 08:24 PM

Then it should be easy for you to prove your point using the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say that God predestines us based on us choosing him?

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

Billyray

04-30-2014, 01:46 AM

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

Above is your entire post unaltered. Below I break it into parts because a lot of what you say I agree with. I differ only in the conclusion that you draw.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him

I agree that choosing Christ is obeying Him

We are commanded to choose Him

I agree.

if we choose Him we are being obedient

I agree

then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

I would say that based on our predestination we will choose Christ.

Just a note. When I first came out of mormonism--if I were to cl***ify my position in hindsight--I would say that I was "Arminian" in my beliefs even though I didn't really know the difference at that point in time. Over the years of reading the Bible--particularly the NT--again and again--I see more and more evidence for the Reformed position and I have confidence that the Reformed position is the correct one. But for me it was a slow shift over the years and I think in part this was due to my LDS upbringing i.e. indoctrination.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 04:51 AM

One could make the case that Heb. 5:9 supports the idea:

And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Since choosing Him is part of obeying Him (We are commanded to choose Him, so if we choose Him we are being obedient) then you could say that based on us choosing Him, He fore-ordains us to salvation.

(Some Bibles translate the word as foreordain, others translate it as predestinate IIRC)

I don't think we can think this.

To believe that God foreordain/predestined us based on our decision to follow Christ is to make god reactive to us.
This would mean that God did something "after" he saw what we did.
And.....this means God is held in time.....held in the grasp of time.

that is not the God of the bible.

So I think this means you cant say that God predestined us based on what we end up doing.

Nor can you say that what we end up doing is the result of predestination because that seems to take away man's free will.

So this means, that it goes like this....The same people that god foreknew he also predestined, and that all of this was completely within the context of man having always and at all times "Free Will".

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 05:01 AM

So God both Foreknew and Predestined us to become believers.
God never foreknew before he also predestined.

One thing does not come before the other...

God is not held by time like that...he has no "later".

So God foreknew us as he also predestined us.

And that this was done in such a way as to maintain our human Free Will at all times.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 05:47 AM

To believe that God foreordain/predestined us based on our decision to follow Christ is to make god reactive to us.

Alan is it fair to say that your position is that man elected himself by his own actions/works?

Could you define predestination, election, and free will so I can have a clear picture of how you are using these terms?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 05:50 AM

And that this was done in such a way as to maintain our human Free Will at all times.
Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 07:43 AM

Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?

silly question badly worded.

God is just as busy now, as he ever was....God does not have one moment that follows another...

We have moments, God does not.
So from our POV we see God do things, and then not do things.
From our POV God changes all the time, moment to moment.

But from God's point of view he always just the same with no moment to moment anything.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 07:44 AM

Alan is it fair to say that your position is that....?

My position is what I have said it was...

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 07:50 AM

Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?

God does not have to sit on the sidelines at all in order to allow his whole creation to have total free will over their futures....
God does not have to work-around our free will.

Your question seems to suggest that if man has Free Will then automatically God is pushed off the game board....this is error and does not reflect the true God of the bible.

God is all powerful......you do not push around the all-powerful God of the bible just because of a bit of human free will is part of the story too...

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 08:06 AM

Could you define... free will?

My understanding of the term and the way I use it is just the normal and common understanding of how we in the church make of such terms.

Free will is the right and the ability to love.
It is the ability to decide things based on all kinds of other things.

free will is the thing that allows us to return God's love.

Free will is the thing that makes us human...makes us able to turn in other directions...to think for ourselves.

free will is our right to decide for ourselves without being forced.

If a person does a sin or breaks the Law, (man's or god's Law) and has free will, then he can be held responsible for what he has done.

On the other hand, if a person had no free will when they broke the Law, then they are always innocent of doing any wrong and are held to be "not guilty"

Free will is what we are confronting when in the Bible we read that we are told to "repent' and come to faith in the Lord.
Free will allows us to do this.

Without free will, we would be unable to understand the calling of God.
Without free Will God would be totally unable to draw us to Christ.

Therefore Free Will is the very heart of why we have a Christian faith.

Free Will gives us the ability to turn to Christ....
But the flip side is that Free Will is also the right and the ability to say "no"...and to walk away from Christ.

Free Will is what Jesus was talking about when he wept over the city because he said the people "would not" come to him...
"would not" is totally different than if Christ had said "could not"

"Would not" tells us that the error the people made was their own...and that was the part that was sad to Christ...For He knew the people "could", but their own free will stopped them from.

"Could not" would mean that the people were doomed from the start.
"Could not " would mean that even before the people were born it had already been determined that they could not come to Jesus.

"Could not" would have meant that the people never had a chance to come to Christ.

"Could not" would have meant that the people were "made to fail"

"Would not" means that the people had every opportunity and had all they needed to do....but simply refused.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 01:43 PM

silly question badly worded.

God is just as busy now, as he ever was....God does not have one moment that follows another...

We have moments, God does not.
So from our POV we see God do things, and then not do things.
From our POV God changes all the time, moment to moment.

But from God's point of view he always just the same with no moment to moment anything.
Alan you didn't address my question.

Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 01:45 PM

Alan is it fair to say that your position is that man elected himself by his own actions/works?

Could you define predestination, election, and free will so I can have a clear picture of how you are using these terms?

My position is what I have said it was...
Alan could you address my questions?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 01:48 PM

Could you define... free will?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Alan here is the dictionary definition of "free will". Is this what you mean when you use the term "free will"?

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 03:03 PM

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Alan here is the dictionary definition of "free will". Is this what you mean when you use the term "free will"?Yes!!!!!!Close enough anyway...LOL

This is all as seen and understood from the human POV, but lets get it very clear what we mean in the Christian church by "Free Will"

Free Will = Totally on our own....free of any interference or someone forcing us.

It's like this....if you get arrested for pulling a gun in a bank and attempting to rob it, you can be found guilty.
However if when they arrest you they find that someone had strapped a bomb to your chest and ordered you to try to rob the bank or they would **** you up, then you are held to be not guilty of anything....

Why are you not guilty?
We know you did not have "Free Will" that would have allowed you to make your own choice.

Free Will means you can sin.
Free Will also means you can respond to the call of God and turn to Him for salvation.
Free Will allows you to make that choice.

Free Will is why the Church is sent to the world and to bring the message of the cross.
Free Will is the means the people can respond.

This is why Free Will is the very heart of the Christian outreach to the Lost...and its the cornerstone of all outreach to the CULTS too!

so Billy:
just tack this post onto the number #332 above and you should have a very clear understanding about what I am talking about when I say "We have free will"

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 03:14 PM

Alan you didn't address my question.

Alan do you believe God plays any role in human history or would you say that God simply watches from the sidelines in order to allow his creation to have "free will"?

see answer number #331 above...

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 03:16 PM

Merriam-Webster Dictionary?

While I never looked up the term Billy, as I said I was giving you what I consider the normal understanding for the terms as found within the church...I also would think that if you check you will ( or I think you should) be able to see how the way I use such terms is generally within the textbook meanings of such words too...

I doubt the church has one meaning and the dictionary has another....

Billyray

04-30-2014, 03:33 PM

Your main issue seems to be accountability so let's look at that for a minute.

1 . We are all given commandments to follow

2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments

3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.

Do you agree or disagree with the statements above?
Let's look at these one by one.

Billyray 1 . We are all given commandments to follow
Libby [1] I don't know that we are all "given commandments". I believe we are born with a rudimentary understanding of right from wrong (which is a part of "God's image" in us).

Billyray
All people understand that there is a God and each has been given a varying degree of commandments. As you said above "we are born with a rudimentary understanding of right from wrong". So we would agree that each and every one of us are given commandments to follow

Billyray 2. We each make a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
Libby [2] I believe we have the "ability" and often even the "desire" to do good, at times.

Billyray
You seem kind of vague in your answer but we each have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments that we have been given. If you disagree with this then let me know so we can discuss it in more detail.

Billyray 3. We are responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.
Libby [3] We are responsible, because we do have a "true" choice. We would not be responsible, if we had no real ability to exercise our free will. If our will were "blinded" or "dead", in part or in full, then how could we be held responsible?

Billyray
It appears that we both agree that we are all held responsible for choosing to obey or disobey the commandments.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Billyray 4. I take it that we agree with the above 3 points thus far (if not please let me know). If a person disobeys God's commandments who is to blame for their disobedience?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 03:38 PM

This is all as seen and understood from the human POV, but lets get it very clear what we mean in the Christian church by "Free Will"

So you are changing the standard dictionary definition of the word "free will"? Come on Alan that is a mormon trick, not a trick that I would expect a Christian use. Are you able to give me a concise definition of this word in the way that you are using this term?

It sounds like you are using the term "free will" to simply mean making a choice. But I believe that we all have the ability to choose what we want to do--even those who are not elect.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 03:50 PM

So you are changing the standard dictionary definition of the word "free will"? .

I believe you cant find a single place where my definition as I have given it, is different than.....oh....Walter martin's.....or the dictionary....or the Christian church....or the bible's.....

I do not believe for a moment that we in the church have a different meaning to the term...

But I'm not perfect,,,,so if you can open up your Webster's and quote me something where I go off the rails?....I will have a look.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 03:57 PM

So you are changing the standard dictionary definition of the word "free will"? .

And Listen....

Billy you did not ask me to look the word up and tell you what other's think the word means.
You asked me to tell you what I thought the word means...

If you had wanted me to go GOOGLE the word, I would have.

The things I have posted are to the question you asked me for , and I did what you asked as best I could.

After reading your post about what Webster's thinks, I got no problem with that ....its better written than my answer for sure.

but it's not what I would say....they are not my words...
they are fine words, just not mine, and I was asked to give you mine.

RealFakeHair

04-30-2014, 03:59 PM

I Think I'd like to see Billy and Alan, fight it out in a rink. One of those new cagefighter things, and call it WM raw l.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 04:01 PM

It sounds like you are using the term "free will" to simply mean making a choice. .

sorta....

But not just to make a choice.... Free Will means you are able to make your OWN choice, free of anyone forcing you to pick one thing over another.

it's a personal thing to you alone.
If I force you to pick one thing I wanted you to pick, then you did not have free will at all....

If I "made you" pick one thing, they you never had free will.
If I made something in such a way as it never could do anything except what I wanted it to do, it would be a robot, and without free will....

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 04:02 PM

I Think I'd like to see Billy and Alan, fight it out in a rink. One of those new cagefighter things, and call it WM raw l.

I do spar.....have I posted a video of me fighting ?

RealFakeHair

04-30-2014, 04:06 PM

I do spar.....have I posted a video of me fighting ?
Bring it on

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 04:35 PM

212....its fun

Billyray

04-30-2014, 06:35 PM

But not just to make a choice.... Free Will means you are able to make your OWN choice, free of anyone forcing you to pick one thing over another.

Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires. So what is the difference between what you believe and what I believe in this area?

(BTW I would never use the term "free will" because neither your position nor mine matches up with the definition of this word)

Billyray

04-30-2014, 06:43 PM

I believe you cant find a single place where my definition as I have given it, is different than.....the dictionary....

I have given you the Merriam Webster Dictionary definition--here it is again.

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

So you agree with this definition? Or are you using your own definition for this word? On the one hand you say you agree with the dictionary definition but on the other hand you are using the word in a different way that is defined. We can't really discuss this issue unless I know where you actually stand.

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 06:45 PM

Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires. i noticed you kinda stopped quoting my sentence a bit short there....I know that was an accident on your part But i would feel better if you posted my whole idea.....then said "Amen"

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 06:47 PM

sorta....

But not just to make a choice.... Free Will means you are able to make your OWN choice, free of anyone forcing you to pick one thing over another.

it's a personal thing to you alone.
If I force you to pick one thing I wanted you to pick, then you did not have free will at all....

If I "made you" pick one thing, they you never had free will.
If I made something in such a way as it never could do anything except what I wanted it to do, it would be a robot, and without free will....

Amen?........

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 06:55 PM

Yes!!!!!!Close enough anyway...LOL

This is all as seen and understood from the human POV, but lets get it very clear what we mean in the Christian church by "Free Will"

Free Will = Totally on our own....free of any interference or someone forcing us.

It's like this....if you get arrested for pulling a gun in a bank and attempting to rob it, you can be found guilty.
However if when they arrest you they find that someone had strapped a bomb to your chest and ordered you to try to rob the bank or they would **** you up, then you are held to be not guilty of anything....

Why are you not guilty?
We know you did not have "Free Will" that would have allowed you to make your own choice.

Free Will means you can sin.
Free Will also means you can respond to the call of God and turn to Him for salvation.
Free Will allows you to make that choice.

Free Will is why the Church is sent to the world and to bring the message of the cross.
Free Will is the means the people can respond.

This is why Free Will is the very heart of the Christian outreach to the Lost...and its the cornerstone of all outreach to the CULTS too!

so Billy:
just tack this post onto the number #332 above and you should have a very clear understanding about what I am talking about when I say "We have free will"
Amen?.......

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 06:56 PM

Libby

04-30-2014, 07:11 PM

Amen. Especially the part about "could not" vs "would not"..

(You all have been very busy here today! :) )

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 07:16 PM

Libby....well done!

You get 50 points for that correct answer and can now sit at the head of the cl***!

alanmolstad

04-30-2014, 07:59 PM

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/will

I googled...

Billyray

04-30-2014, 08:40 PM

Billyray
Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires.

Alan
i noticed you kinda stopped quoting my sentence a bit short there....I know that was an accident on your part But i would feel better if you posted my whole idea.....then said "Amen"
As did you with mine in the same exact post that you complained about me shortening your post. A bit hypocritical on your part don't you think? Below is my post that you quoted in full.

Calvinists believe that each person makes his or her "OWN" choice and chooses what he or she desires. So what is the difference between what you believe and what I believe in this area?

(BTW I would never use the term "free will" because neither your position nor mine matches up with the definition of this word)
BTW was there a specific point you were trying to make with your criticism that I quoted part of your post rather than the entire thing--which of course you did as well with my post?

Libby

04-30-2014, 08:52 PM

Let's look at these one by one.

Billyray 4. I take it that we agree with the above 3 points thus far (if not please let me know). If a person disobeys God's commandments who is to blame for their disobedience?

Before we decide that we are agreeing on this, let me ask you a question. Is it possible for man to have the desire to choose good or God of his own free will?

Pretty sure we are still disagreeing on the definition of God's "drawing" and what that means for man.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 09:04 PM

Could you define... free will?

Sure I would be happy to Alan. But I have already do so multiple times now. Here it is again for you.

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

"Would not" tells us that the error the people made was their own...

Anyone who does not keep the commandments is in error and they are to blame.

"Could not" would mean that the people were doomed from the start.

If anyone keeps all of the commandments they would live with God. Those who do not keep all of the commandments are invited to come to Christ and if they do they certainly would be saved. Those who disobey the commandments and do not come to Christ do so because that is what they "choose" to do (what you would call free will).

BTW don't forget that your viewpoint also condemns a specific set group of individuals to hell before those people are even born. But you must have forgotten that fact.

"Could not " would mean that even before the people were born it had already been determined that they could not come to Jesus.

Don't forget that your position also holds that a person's fate is sealed before that person is even born and that there is nothing that can change that fact.

"Could not" would have meant that the people were "made to fail"

The statement "made to fail" shows your ignorance of the Calvinist position. Nobody is forcing a person to choose to disobey the commandments nor is anyone forcing anyone to reject Christ. These are choices that they make because that is what they choose to do. If a person choose to obey the commandments they would live with God again OR if they placed their faith in Christ they would be saved--but they choose what they want which is to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 09:19 PM

Is it possible for man to have the desire to choose good or God of his own free will?

Each person has the opportunity and the choice to either obey the commandments or disobey them. They also have the opportunity and the choice to either accept Christ or reject Him. Every person is held responsible for his or her choices. As far as "desire"--people choose what they desire and those who are not regenerated will choose to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 09:23 PM

Pretty sure we are still disagreeing on the definition of God's "drawing" and what that means for man.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I think you are right it appears that we are in disagreement on this issue. Let's look at John 6 one more time. Can man on his own free will come to Christ without first being drawn by the Father? Or is there some Divine intervention that must take place in order for man to be able to come unto Christ?

Libby

04-30-2014, 09:57 PM

Each person has the opportunity and the choice to either obey the commandments or disobey them. They also have the opportunity and the choice to either accept Christ or reject Him. Every person is held responsible for his or her choices. As far as "desire"--people choose what they desire and those who are not regenerated will choose to disobey the commandments and to reject Christ.

Okay. What Biblical reference are you using for your belief about regeneration?

Do you consider God's drawing as regenerating?

Doesn't regeneration occur after a person accepts Christ?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 10:11 PM

Okay. What Biblical reference are you using for your belief about regeneration?

Do you consider God's drawing as regenerating?

Doesn't regeneration occur after a person accepts Christ?
No regeneration occurs first. Remember unless a person is changed then his "desire" is to "choose" (Alan's definition of free will) to reject Christ and disobey the commandments.

Libby

04-30-2014, 10:16 PM

No regeneration occurs first. Remember unless a person is changed then his "desire" is to "choose" (Alan's definition of free will) to reject Christ and disobey the commandments.

Well, that is still a source of disagreement....or misunderstanding.

Where does it say in the Bible, specifically, that we must first be regenerated, in order accept Christ?

Billyray

04-30-2014, 10:29 PM

Where does it say in the Bible, specifically, that we must first be regenerated, in order accept Christ?
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Let's start (again) with this verse before we move on to look at others. According to this verse man on his own can't come to Christ (he is unable to do so) without some divine intervention that enables them to do so.

Libby

04-30-2014, 10:35 PM

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Let's start (again) with this verse before we move on to look at others. According to this verse man on his own can't come to Christ (he is unable to do so) without some divine intervention that enables them to do so.

Yes, but again, you are interpreting "drawing" to mean regeneration. Drawing (even YOUR definition) doesn't mean giving someone a new heart. That's completely something else, again.

Billyray

04-30-2014, 11:37 PM

Yes, but again, you are interpreting "drawing" to mean regeneration. Drawing (even YOUR definition) doesn't mean giving someone a new heart. That's completely something else, again.
Salvation or "order of salvation" is not just one step but a succession of steps: predestine, election . . .regeneration . . .death, resurrection. .etc. In verse 44 those who are drawn are raised so you see a continuum from early to late in the "order of salvation".

The reason that I keep bringing up these same verses over and over again is because most of the issues that we have discussed are packed in these three verses below. So what can we glean from just these three verses below

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1. In verse 36 you see those who are following after Christ and asking him questions about salvation, have seen his miracles, and yet are not saved. Why not since they have had all of this exposure to his teachings, miracles, and close contact? Christ tells us in verse 37. Those in verse 36 did not come to Christ because they were not given to Him by the Father. Those who are given to the Son by the Father will ALL come to him. This is the doctrine of election clearly presented in these two verses.

2. Now let's look at verse 44. What do we learn here? There is something in natural man which precludes him from coming to Christ on his own. As we learn in other verses in the NT, man is dead in sins and tresp***es and his desire is to sin and he wants nothing to do with Christ. Nobody is forcing him to sin--rather that is what he desires and what he chooses. So man on his own in this state is unable to come to Christ and must be changed in some way in order to do so. Notice in this verse you start with unregenerate man and progress along the order of salvation all the way towards the end with resurrection. And don't miss the point that those who are drawn ARE raised.

Libby

05-01-2014, 12:10 AM

Salvation or "order of salvation" is not just one step but a succession of steps: predestine, election . . .regeneration . . .death, resurrection. .etc. In verse 44 those who are drawn are raised so you see a continuum from early to late in the "order of salvation".

The reason that I keep bringing up these same verses over and over again is because most of the issues that we have discussed are packed in these three verses below. So what can we glean from just these three verses below

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

1. In verse 36 you see those who are following after Christ and asking him questions about salvation, have seen his miracles, and yet are not saved. Why not since they have had all of this exposure to his teachings, miracles, and close contact? Christ tells us in verse 37. Those in verse 36 did not come to Christ because they were not given to Him by the Father. Those who are given to the Son by the Father will ALL come to him. This is the doctrine of election clearly presented in these two verses.

2. Now let's look at verse 44. What do we learn here? There is something in natural man which precludes him from coming to Christ on his own. As we learn in other verses in the NT, man is dead in sins and tresp***es and his desire is to sin and he wants nothing to do with Christ. Nobody is forcing him to sin--rather that is what he desires and what he chooses. So man on his own in this state is unable to come to Christ and must be changed in some way in order to do so. Notice in this verse you start with unregenerate man and progress along the order of salvation all the way towards the end with resurrection. And don't miss the point that those who are drawn ARE raised.

Ah, yes, the order of salvation. I used to watch this discussion on CARM. This would be at the crux of much of the disagreements between Arminians and Calvinists.

Calvinists believe "regeneration" is high on the list...drawing and then regeneration. Arminians believe it is not the second or even third stage. Grace and then faith come first.

I donno, Billy. All I know is, man cannot be held responsible, if he is "unable" to come to Christ of his own free will.

Billyray

05-01-2014, 12:41 AM

Ah, yes, the order of salvation. I used to watch this discussion on CARM. This would be at the crux of much of the disagreements between Arminians and Calvinists.

Calvinists believe "regeneration" is high on the list...drawing and then regeneration. Arminians believe it is not the second or even third stage. Grace and then faith come first.

I donno, Billy. All I know is, man cannot be held responsible, if he is "unable" to come to Christ of his own free will.
I think this is a difficult doctrine to accept from a human perspective because it comes across to many as being unfair. But there are many things in the Bible from our perspective that may seem unfair--yet they are plainly taught and what is also taught is that from God's perspective they are fair. Anyway if you have time re read Romans 9 because Paul brings up an objection that is raised when this doctrine is taught and it sounds eerily familiar to the one that you raised. Romans 9 is a tough chapter for many--yet there it is in the middle of the NT. What I have tried to do over the last several years is simply read the text and accept what is written without trying to bring in preconceived ideas etc. When I first left mormonism for Christianity I would cl***ify my position as Arminian in hindsight--even though I really had no clue what that was at the time, and I think that reason for this is because this position is much closer to the lds position and at that point I too relied on human reasoning to some extent as a basis truth rather than simply reading the text as written. Anyway enjoy chapter 9 if you decide to give it a read.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 01:04 AM

would not means you could but did not.

could not means you never could

jesus said "would not"

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 04:21 AM

Billy you sent me a comment that seemed to suggest that you did not disagree with my understanding of Free will.
While this is encouraging to me as it seems to suggest that you are not as far gone as I may have thought., I still wanted to make sure so I re-posted the things I have said I understand about the over-all concept of a person's Free Will and asked you to say "Amen" to my understandings.

I still would like you to read what i said and tell me if you can say "Amen"?

Basically what have I said?
Now I have said over and over that our fate is not set when we are born.
We have free will, and this means that the future is wide open for us and we can decide to make our own way in the world free of anyone's control.

I have said that I also believe that if we were made in such a way as to be totally unable to do something, then we cant be held to blame for not being able to do that.

Thats just the way it is...

Free Will is not only the "ability" to make a decision, but its the ability to make a decision that is free of anyone's power to force us to pick only one thing over another....

This "freedom from other influence" is the part of my quote that was dropped that I was worried about, as it's the most important part of my understanding of Free Will and by dropping it a person can come to a totally wrong conclusion about what i believe.

Free Will means we are not under another's will.....
that's why we say it's "free"

So this is way better than just being able to make a simple decision, as even animals are able to make decisions.
But for the most part the decisions of animals are under the influence of instinct.
This means that for the most part animals lack real Free Will like we enjoy.

We are able to make real choices.
When I decide on something, when I decide between two things it's because I think one is better than the other.
No power on earth or in heaven is controlling my decisions.

If my decision was under someone else's control, then it would not be my decision in the first place!

But this is also why I (and I alone) am responsible for the decisions I make.
I cant duck-out of the blame for a committing a sin by pointing to God and saying, "But you made me like this!"

God cant make a person in such a manner as with no chance at all to believe in Christ, and then later blame him for not coming to Christ.

If God made me and predetermined that i would fail...or that i would sin, then I would reject that God
and I would feel good about rejecting that false-god because it would later turn out to be Satan anyway...:)

So This is why we know for a fact that god did not ever "predetermine" that some go to hell.....

This is why God cant make people as designed to fail...."made to fail"

Now a lot of people think that god does design some people with a built-in design that will cause them to fail and that these people never actually had a chance.....Some people actually believe that when these"lost"people do fail it is in keeping with God's design and plan for their life.

In other words, "Made To Fail"

They are wrong.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 04:42 AM

Now a lot of people get mixed up on the word "draw" .

When the Bible tells us that no one comes to christ except that are first 'drawn' by the father, a lot of people get the idea that this "drawing" is when a person is changed.
It's not.

Other people think that this "drawing" is an unstoppable force that overtakes a person's free will......
Its not.

I remember back in my days in Bible School that we had to study how we are saved, and what it means to be "drawn" by the father.
i read a lot of things on the topic, but I think it was the words of luther that are still with me.

if I remember this correctly (It's been many years) the thing Luther said is that the act of God drawing us is like a romance.
It's gentle.
It's quiet.
It's like when a boy sees a girl he likes and tries to get her attention.
It's being attracted to .

And perhaps that too is a way better word that gives us a better understanding of what God the Father is doing in our lives when He draws us to the Son.....He is "attracting" us

All this is always done hand-in-hand with our Free Will.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 05:07 AM

Amen?.......

amen?.......

disciple

05-01-2014, 06:21 AM

would not means you could but did not.

could not means you never could

jesus said "would not"

There are two kinds of scriptures that I think shows that all men have the
chance to be saved. The following contain a command to believe.

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all
men everywhere to repent”. Acts 17:30

“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:22

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent,
and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Mat 11:28

“And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son
Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”1 John 3:23

“On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
“If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.” John 7:37

These show the possibility that a man can believe unto salvation.

“But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” John 5:40

“forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to
fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.”
1 Thess 2:16

Libby

05-01-2014, 11:45 AM

Good posts, Alan and disciple.

I remember an Arminian poster, over on CARM, many years ago, explained the "drawing process" as a give and take, between God and man. God draws, and if man responds positively, God continues to draw, a little at a time, man responds, a little, God draws, man responds, etc. It's a process. And, as Alan described, it is an attracting, an allure....not a "dragging" process, which eliminates man's will, altogether.

If man does not respond, God does not give up, but eventually, if the person is not responding, they will become less and less aware of God's "drawing".

Libby

05-01-2014, 11:58 AM

I think this is a difficult doctrine to accept from a human perspective because it comes across to many as being unfair. But there are many things in the Bible from our perspective that may seem unfair--yet they are plainly taught and what is also taught is that from God's perspective they are fair. Anyway if you have time re read Romans 9 because Paul brings up an objection that is raised when this doctrine is taught and it sounds eerily familiar to the one that you raised. Romans 9 is a tough chapter for many--yet there it is in the middle of the NT. What I have tried to do over the last several years is simply read the text and accept what is written without trying to bring in preconceived ideas etc. When I first left mormonism for Christianity I would cl***ify my position as Arminian in hindsight--even though I really had no clue what that was at the time, and I think that reason for this is because this position is much closer to the lds position and at that point I too relied on human reasoning to some extent as a basis truth rather than simply reading the text as written. Anyway enjoy chapter 9 if you decide to give it a read.

Billy, I don't think it just "comes across" as unfair. The fact is, it is unfair, which is why many cannot accept it, as coming from God.

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 01:16 PM

Billy, I don't think it just "comes across" as unfair. The fact is, it is unfair, which is why many cannot accept it, as coming from God.

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?
I brought up Romans 9 because your objection to the doctrine of election was brought by Paul as an objection in the middle of chapter 9. I thought you might catch it but perhaps you didn't re read it last night. Here it is.

Romans 9: 19 One of you [Libby, Alan, BigJ. . .] will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Billyray

05-01-2014, 01:31 PM

I've read Romans 9 many times. Was there something in particular you wanted to discuss, in regards to that chapter?
Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Libby can you tell me what this section of scripture from Romans 9 is teaching us? (Note--two nations came out of Jacob and Esau but this p***age in context is speaking about the twins themselves--not nations. I mention this because I didn't want you to try that explanation because it doesn't fit here.)

Libby

05-01-2014, 01:45 PM

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Libby can you tell me what this section of scripture from Romans 9 is teaching us? (Note--two nations came out of Jacob and Esau but this p***age in context is speaking about the twins themselves--not nations. I mention this because I didn't want you to try that explanation because it doesn't fit here.)

This is easy, Billy. Jacob was chosen by God to lead the people, rather than Esau, who was the oldest. That's all it's really about. God did not, literally, "hate" Esau. He just did something atypical, by not allowing the oldest to lead. Do you believe Esau went to hell? I don't.

RealFakeHair

05-01-2014, 01:51 PM

This is easy, Billy. Jacob was chosen by God to lead the people, rather than Esau, who was the oldest. That's all it's really about. God did not, literally, "hate" Esau. He just did something atypical, by not allowing the oldest to lead. Do you believe Esau went to hell? I don't.

I think Esau went to Ireland, and that's why we have some many red heads there today.

Billyray

05-01-2014, 04:31 PM

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”.
Let's start with this one because it is the easiest. Like we discussed last night there are many parts of the Bible--from a human perspective-- that are difficult in that it may go against what we feel is right. However that gives us a perfect example to discuss bringing preconceived ideas and reading them into the text VERSES simply reading what is actually said.

Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

1. What does the text actually say?

2. What does the text say when you ***ume that your preconceived ideas are correct and read them into the text?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 04:40 PM

This is easy, Billy. Jacob was chosen by God to lead the people, rather than Esau, who was the oldest. .
1. Did God elect Jacob?

2. Did God elect Esau?

3. If "God's purpose in election" was simply about a leadership role and nothing else, why was verse 13 included?

Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Libby

05-01-2014, 04:54 PM

1. Did God elect Jacob?

2. Did God elect Esau?

3. If "God's purpose in election" was simply about a leadership role and nothing else, why was verse 13 included?

Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

I don't know, Billy. Maybe it was just for effect? I don't think it was intended to be literal. The whole chapter is about selecting leadership, not about salvation.

Do you believe God loves some people more than others?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 05:00 PM

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:02 PM

I don't know, Billy. Maybe it was just for effect? I don't think it was intended to be literal. The whole chapter is about selecting leadership, not about salvation.
Do you think it is a possibility--even a remote one--that you are letting your preconceived ideas effect your ability to read and accept a clearly worded statement?

Libby

05-01-2014, 05:05 PM

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:05 PM

Libby

05-01-2014, 05:06 PM

Did I miss the part where Billy answers with "Amen"?

I don't think you missed it. ;-)

Libby

05-01-2014, 05:09 PM

I think Esau went to Ireland, and that's why we have some many red heads there today.

Well, see, now that makes sense! :)

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:11 PM

Do you think it is a possibility--even a remote one--that you are letting your preconceived ideas effect your ability to read and accept a clearly worded statement?

Not in this case, because the whole of this chapter is very clearly about choosing a leader for God's people. Not about salvation.

I have read that the "loved Jacob/hated Esau" verse is about blessing one less than the other.
When you said above "I have read. . .is about. . ."--would you say that this is a preconceived idea that has clouded your thinking into not being able to read a simple statement written in plain English?

Here is my post from earlier. Can you honestly address the questions that are in that post?

Let's start with this one because it is the easiest. Like we discussed last night there are many parts of the Bible--from a human perspective-- that are difficult in that it may go against what we feel is right. However that gives us a perfect example to discuss bringing preconceived ideas and reading them into the text VERSES simply reading what is actually said.

Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

1. What does the text actually say?

2. What does the text say when you ***ume that your preconceived ideas are correct and read them into the text?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:18 PM

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 05:19 PM

Alan do see any resemblance between the objection that you raise compared to the one that Paul mentions in Romans 9:19?

Thats predestination, we are talking about man's free will.

We have free will...even Pharoh with Moses had always Free Will at all times.

God does not need to race in and rob us of human free will just to accomplish his plans for us.

(All this was talked about in depth on the many Walter Martin recordings I have posted over and over. Did you not listen to any of them?)

So each of us, both the believer and the unbeliever has the same amount of Free Will....and we always will have it too!
It's what allows us to act in this world...to be able to make decisions on our own.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 05:22 PM

1. Do you believe that Jacob was saved?

2 Do you believe that Esau was saved?
Is there a verse in the Bible that tells us that stuff?>>>

Both of the guys had some serious issues and had very bad moral problems....The Younger one worse that the other actually.....

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:24 PM

. . .In other words, "Made To Fail". . .

I brought up Romans 9 because your objection to the doctrine of election was brought by Paul as an objection in the middle of chapter 9. I thought you might catch it but perhaps you didn't re read it last night. Here it is.

Romans 9: 19 One of you [Libby, Alan, BigJ. . .] will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Alan do see any resemblance between the objection that you raise compared to the one that Paul mentions in Romans 9:19?

Thats predestination, we are talking about man's free will.

We have free will...even Pharoh with Moses had always Free Will at all times.

God does not need to race in and rob us of human free will just to accomplish his plans for us.

(All this was talking about in the many Walter Martin recordings I have posted over and over. Did you not listen to any of them?)

Ok. But did you take a look at your statement and then look at the objection raised by Paul and see any resemblance between the two?

Alan--. . .In other words, "Made To Fail". . .
Paul--Romans 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:27 PM

Is there a verse in the Bible that tells us that stuff?>>>

Both of the guys had some serious issues and had very bad moral problems....The Younger one worse that the other actually.....
So a fair ***essment based on your answer would be that you don't know (or have an opinion) either way. Fair enough. How about this question then.

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

What was the basis for electing Jacob? Was this based on God looking into the future and seeing what he would do?

Libby

05-01-2014, 05:29 PM

We know from the text that Jacob was elect and Esau was not--so a couple of follow up questions for you--if you are comfortable answering them for me.

1. Do you believe that Jacob was saved?

2 Do you believe that Esau was saved?

Election means something different to you than what I think it actually means in this chapter. Election = selected by God for a task.

I can't say, for sure, if either were "saved". I don't believe Esau, necessarily, wasn't, based on that one verse. But, again, this chapter is not about salvation.

Libby

05-01-2014, 05:31 PM

Billy, I think, perhaps, you are the one who is dealing with some pretty substantial "preconceived notions".

Billyray

05-01-2014, 05:58 PM

. . .I can't say, for sure, if either were "saved". . .
Fair enough. So just to recap I will fill in your answers below.

1. Do you believe that Jacob was saved? Not sure (Libby)

2 Do you believe that Esau was saved? Not sure (Libby)

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:05 PM

Election means something different to you than what I think it actually means in this chapter. Election = selected by God for a task.

Do you believe that Jacob's election was based on God looking into the future to see what he would do OR on God's Sovereign choice based on God's

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:05 PM

Ok. But did you take a look at your statement and then look at the objection raised by Paul and see any resemblance between the two?

Alan--. . .In other words, "Made To Fail". . .
Paul--Romans 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
romans 9 is just talking about the Jews who had at one time all the keys to the kingdom....but now there are nonJews who are in the church!.....

That has nothing to do with Free Will.......the Jews always have their free will.
but in these verses we see God opening the door of his church wide......

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:06 PM

Billy, I think, perhaps, you are the one who is dealing with some pretty substantial "preconceived notions".
What have I said in this thread that would lead you to that conclusion?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:07 PM

romans 9 is just talking about the Jews who had at one time all the keys to the kingdom....but now there are nonJews who are in the church!.....

That has nothing to do with Free Will.......the Jews always have their free will.
but in these verses we see God opening the door of his church wide......
But did you take a look at your statement and then look at the objection raised by Paul and see any resemblance between the two?

Alan--. . .In other words, "Made To Fail". . .
Paul--Romans 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:10 PM

romans 9 is just talking about the Jews who had at one time all the keys to the kingdom....but now there are nonJews who are in the church!.....

That has nothing to do with Free Will.......the Jews always have their free will.
but in these verses we see God opening the door of his church wide............God carried out his plans....and in the verse we see the image of a Jew addressing the new situation and knowing that this was all Gods plan should the Jews who rejected Christ still need to repent?......

the answer is Yes!.

god did not take away their free will just to be able to carry out his plans...

what a weak god it would be if he had to rob people of free will just to be able to do squat in the universe!

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:11 PM

But did you take a look at your statement and then look at the objection raised by Paul and see any resemblance between the two?

Alan--. . .In other words, "Made To Fail". . .
Paul--Romans 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
see post 403

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:13 PM

Not in this case, because the whole of this chapter is very clearly about choosing a leader for God's people. Not about salvation.

Romans 9
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—
2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,
4 the people of Israel.

Libby you said "the whole of this chapter is very clearly about choosing a leader for God's people. Not about salvation.". Is there anything in the first four verses that touches on the subject of salvation?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:16 PM

so the Jews who saw jesus yet still rejected him never had their free will taken away from them.....

they were always free to believe......
but in Romans 9 we see the arguement that a Jew might try.....to say they were guiltless because its all part of gods plan....

but they error because god carried out his plan while never stripping the Jews or anyone of free will!

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:16 PM

god did not take away their free will just to be able to carry out his plans...
Paul--Romans 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

If man has complete free will (by the dictionary definition--not your definition) then why do you think Paul would even bring up this objection?

Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:18 PM

Romans 9
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—
2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,
4 the people of Israel.

Libby you said "the whole of this chapter is very clearly about choosing a leader for God's people. Not about salvation.". Is there anything in the first four verses that touches on the subject of salvation?

verse 3 tells us who we are dealing with.....the Jews.

the jews were always a big part of gods plan...but god never took away their free will......

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:20 PM

to say they were guiltless because its all part of gods plan
When you say "God's Plan" what does that mean exactly with the ***umption of man's free will to choose what ever he wants--when ever he wants? Wouldn't this simply be man's plan and God is simply watching things as they unfold?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:21 PM

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:41 PM

When Paul says in verse 3 "cut off from Christ " do you think this has anything to do with salvation?In other parts of the Bible we see that the Jews are not actually "cut off" ...there is a hint that the Jews at the 2nd Coming will play a very big position in the future Kingdom,...

So we can't say therefore "All Jews are cut-off from God" as that would be clearly a racist view and not based on what we know happens in the future.

Romans 9 is about the fact that regardless of God's plan and how God works in the universe, He never needs to make man weaker, (ie take away our Free Will) just for Him to act as sovereign Lord over the universe.

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:51 PM

In other parts of the Bible we see that the Jews are not actually "cut off" ...there is a hint that the Jews at the 2nd Coming will play a very big position in the future Kingdom,...

So we can't say therefore "All Jews are cut-off from God" as that would be clearly a racist view and not based on what we know happens in the future.

Romans 9 is about the fact that regardless of God's plan and how God works in the universe, He never needs to make man weaker, (ie take away our Free Will) just for Him to act as sovereign Lord over the universe.
But to answer my question when Paul says in verse 3 "cut off from Christ " do you think this has anything to do with salvation?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:54 PM

When you say "God's Plan" what does that mean exactly with the ***umption of man's free will to choose what ever he wants--when ever he wants?
The 1st part:

God's plan is like the cross.....the church....and his word.
God is sovereign and as such is more than able to work the things He does, without relying on robbing men of Free Will just to pull off some trick .
God does not need to make man weaker just so God can get off his **** and do a days work.

God is a true Sovereign....a true Sovereign has the ability to carry out His will while always insuring man's complete Free Will at all times.

At the start of this I posted something that now I think is time to review:

Man Has Free Will.......and.....God Is Sovereign!

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 06:58 PM

..... Wouldn't this simply be man's plan and God is simply watching things as they unfold?

Dont really understand this question...
But I have said many times that God does not need to sit on his hands just because he was foolish enough to give to man Free Will....
God is always just as busy as He always is....

Billyray

05-01-2014, 06:59 PM

Man Has Free Will.......and.....God Is Sovereign!
Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Does man have "free will" as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:02 PM

But to answer my question when Paul says in verse 3 "cut off from Christ " do you think this has anything to do with salvation?In the context of Paul's wording, I believe it is a clear hyperbole ...

It's like saying a " Christian must "hate" his parents....Jesus said this but we know he was not serious because you cant "hate" your parents without breaking the Law....

So Paul is making a weird little wild statement to make a point....

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:07 PM

Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Does man have "free will" as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary?

How many ways do you need to hear me say the same things ?....

While I may not understand all of the dictionary's different meanings to the word (I googled it and the listing goes on for a full page!)
I yet note no one is saying that I have a 'different' understanding compared to most Christians....or compared to Walter Martin....or compared to the dictionary.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:13 PM

Does man have "free will" as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary?
Free Will is why we can 'repent'....and turn to god.
Free Will is also why some turn away from god....

Billyray

05-01-2014, 07:25 PM

In the context of Paul's wording, I believe it is a clear hyperbole ...

It's like saying a " Christian must "hate" his parents....Jesus said this but we know he was not serious because you cant "hate" your parents without breaking the Law....

So Paul is making a weird little wild statement to make a point....
So your belief is that being cut off from Christ has nothing to do with salvation. Thanks for giving me your position.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:26 PM

Romans 9 is like:

Here is an example of the argument we see portrayed in the text there-

Lets say it's God PLAN, that Dave and Jane get married.
But right now Jane and Dave dont even know each other.

Then one day I stop by the bar on my way home from work and get stinking drunk.
I know its not a good idea, but Im ****ed at my work and so i drink and drink...

Later I get in my car and try to drive home, but I crash into another car and kill a young girl.
But at the funeral the sister of the young dead girl I killed (named Jane) meets for the first time a boy playing the music named Dave, and they fall in love and get married.

Now can I still be held guilty of anything at all?
Did I really even sin?

that is the argument we see talked about in Romans 9.
When you read it you see its a bad argument to make, and it fails, just as my example here fails because we know full well that in my story I clearly sinned, and will clearly be judged for my sin.

We know that while my sin led to a working out of God's plan, this does not really matter, as i had free Will at all times, and never once was I 'forced" to drive drunk and crash.

I had free Will the whole time.

Yet God is sovereign and so He was able to fulfil his plan while never once taking away my onw free will.

Im guilty because I have Free Will.

God was able to fulfill his plan because God Is Sovereign!

Billyray

05-01-2014, 07:26 PM

Free Will is why we can 'repent'....and turn to god.
Free Will is also why some turn away from god....
But Alan do you realize that you didn't answer my question.

Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Does man have "free will" as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 07:29 PM

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:33 PM

So your belief is that being cut off from Christ has nothing to do with salvation. Thanks for giving me your position.
Well it depends on the context.....Just as the word "hate" that appears a few times in the bible does not mean to truly hate someone.

You have to remember the context of where you are at the time....

Paul here in Romans is making a hyperbole ......
Its sorta like when Paul talked about people in the church plucking out their own eyes to give him...Or when Jesus talked about cutting out the eye to stop from sinning.
Although the text clearly is talking about physical dis-membership of part of the body, it's not really talking about that at all.....due to the - (here it comes) due to the CONTEXT!

Paul was just making a point that he felt bad that so many Jews are turning away from his teachings...

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:36 PM

If God is Sovereign and it is God's plan that you get married to Jane can you choose to thwart God's plan and not marry Jane?
always and at all times, both Dave and Jane MUST be totally free to make their own decision......If there was even a hint that they were being forced to get married it would mean their love and marriage was fake....or a sham....or worse...

love is only possible if you are free to decide...
That is why we have Free Will...so we can love and return love of another...

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:37 PM

But Alan do you realize that you didn't answer my question.

Merriam Webster
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision 
2 freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Does man have "free will" as defined by the Merriam Webster dictionary?
Please refer to...Ummm....heck any of the posts i have left on this topic...they all tell you what you are asking about.......

Billyray

05-01-2014, 07:44 PM

always and at all times, both Dave and Jane MUST be totally free to make their own decision......If there was even a hint that they were being forced to get married it would mean their love and marriage was fake....or a sham....or worse...

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth and God is a mere observer of the unfolding events.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:53 PM

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth and God is a mere observer of the unfolding events.

not even close!

You missed that by a mile....

Have I ever said even one small hint that God is just an "observer"?
You know what Billy...its like you just pull things out of thin air and paint people with them as if they actually believe this stuff that you invented!

Over and over and over and over I keep telling you that God is just as busy now as he ever was...and that God does not need to sit on his hands just because he gave man Free Will.....and that ......

well.....you get the point.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 07:55 PM

no "Amen" yet I notice.......

Libby, did I miss the "Amen"?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 08:05 PM

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth.......anyone know a 'man" that knows how to "control" time so i can have an extra 6 hours of sleep tonight before I have to be to work?.......

Billyray

05-01-2014, 08:21 PM

not even close!

OK let's try again.

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 08:26 PM

OK let's try again.

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth.Take the weather for example.....it's been a thorn in our sides for billions of years...and yet even after all this time we are still helpless to the weather.

So in that context....do you think men will ever be all that in control of what happens on the earth?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 08:35 PM

But this does not mean that we dont have free will.

We have our free will, and this allows us to love, to respond to love, to change our minds...to make up our own views...to make our own decisions, free of the influence of anyone forcing us...
So this is why i say "Man Has Free Will!"

and with this i add....

God is Sovereign.
God carries out his plans, does the things He wants to do....works the world to reflect the things he wants from it...Does what ever He as God wants to do.
God does not need to rob man of his free will just to be able to go to work in the morning.

God's Sovereignty works without conflict with man's free will....

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 08:44 PM

any questions?

Billyray

05-01-2014, 08:46 PM

OK let's try again.

Is it fair to say that your position is that man is ultimately in control of what happens here on earth.

So in that context....do you think men will ever be all that in control of what happens on the earth?
I don't believe that man is in control rather I believe that God is Soveign and He is in control and He brings about things according to His good will and pleasure.

But I still can't quite grasp your position after all of this time. The best I can gather is that man is in ultimate control of this world and it is ultimately man's plan for the world not God's plan.

Permit me to ask you a follow up question along these same lines

We both know that Christ came to offer Himself as a sacrifice which would allow sinners to be saved. Since you believe that man has free will and therefore in ultimate control of all events, do you believe that it is possible that Christ could have come to earth and instead of being crucified been sent to Rome and placed in prison thus preventing His death on the cross?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 08:54 PM

But I still can't quite grasp your position after all of this time.

The best I can gather is that man is in ultimate control of this world and it is ultimately man's plan for the world not God's plan.

.......Best I can gather is that you dont really read squat of my posts, but likely just skim them, and base your views of what Im saying on this air....

Now if you would like to point out to me where I even ONCE even slightly hinted that God has no plan in effect for this world?

Billy, billy, billy, Over and Over I have said that God is SOVEREIGN and that God does not need to rob from man of free will, just so God can do a few things in his own creation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now try to read that last sentence of mine enough times to grasp my meaning....
it's a very short sentence, its the very same thing I have posted over and over for days and days...there is nothing new here.
And everything Im posting to you, you were supposed to have already heard from Walter Martin in the recordings i gave you links to....so there is nothing new here........

Im mean think about it for a moment!....if God needed to weaken man of his free Will just to be able to do something in our lives, He would be a rather weak god ......certainly not worth the trouble to worship....

Billyray

05-01-2014, 08:54 PM

We have our free will, and this allows us to love, to respond to love, to change our minds...to make up our own views...to make our own decisions, free of the influence of anyone forcing us...
So this is why i say "Man Has Free Will!"

As I said before it appears that you are using the word "free will" when you are simply trying to convey "choice". Because I also believe that we each have a "choice" to make and I certainly don't feel forced when I am making that choice. Those who are not elect also make a "choice" when they "choose" to disobey the commandments and reject Christ. They make this "choice" and "choose" what they want to "choose".

Billyray

05-01-2014, 09:01 PM

Best I can gather is that you dont really read squat of my posts, but likely just skim them, and base your views of what Im saying on this air....

Now if you would like to point out to me where I even ONCE even slightly hinted that God has no plan in effect for this world?

Alan I am reading your posts but from my perspective you have conflicting beliefs. On the one hand you say that man has free will--yet the next thing you say is that God is Sovereign and has a plan in effect. These are contradictory. I am trying to point this out to you but you don't seem to want to even consider that. If man has complete free will--using the dictionary definition--then man is in control of this world and future events are at the mercy of man NOT God. Any intervention by God to control things would by definition take away man's free will. So the only option that God has is to let things play out and hope for the best.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:01 PM

I don't believe that man is in control rather I believe that God is Soveign and He is in control and He brings about things according to His good will and pleasure.

But I still can't quite grasp your position after all of this time. The best I can gather is that man is in ultimate control of this world and it is ultimately man's plan for the world not God's plan.

Permit me to ask you a follow up question along these same lines

We both know that Christ came to offer Himself as a sacrifice which would allow sinners to be saved. Since you believe that man has free will and therefore in ultimate control of all events, do you believe that it is possible that Christ could have come to earth and instead of being crucified been sent to Rome and placed in prison thus preventing His death on the cross?
The Romans who killed Christ had total Free Will to do whatever they wanted.....
They wanted to calm the people and not cause a riot, so for their own reasons they killed Jesus....
They had that free will that aloowed them to do this....

God never took away the Roman's free will just to be able to work out the plan of salvation!!!!!

If God needed to step in and rob the Romans of their Free Will just to be able to work the plan of salvation? then that would mean that the God's plan required "CHEATING".....and a WEAK false-god to perform....
and that would mean that Jesus was a fake Christ and we should look for a different Christ to save us.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:04 PM

to more understand how Free Will works hand-in-hand with god's Sovereignty, I refer you to my Dave and Jane story...

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:06 PM

On the one hand you say that man has free will--yet the next thing you say is that God is Sovereign and has a plan in effect. .

see......some of my posts are sinking in a little ...LOL
Thanks for correctly understanding my point!

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:09 PM

..... These are contradictory. ......

here......have a listen and see what Im quoting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLzvPus6Zg

if you dont have a lot of time,,,skip ahead to the 8:00 point

and then....

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:16 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLzvPus6Zg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLzvPus6Zg

Billyray

05-01-2014, 09:35 PM

I don't believe that man is in control rather I believe that God is Soveign and He is in control and He brings about things according to His good will and pleasure.

But I still can't quite grasp your position after all of this time. The best I can gather is that man is in ultimate control of this world and it is ultimately man's plan for the world not God's plan.

Permit me to ask you a follow up question along these same lines

We both know that Christ came to offer Himself as a sacrifice which would allow sinners to be saved. Since you believe that man has free will and therefore in ultimate control of all events, do you believe that it is possible that Christ could have come to earth and instead of being crucified been sent to Rome and placed in prison thus preventing His death on the cross?

The Romans who killed Christ had total Free Will to do whatever they wanted.....
They wanted to calm the people and not cause a riot, so for their own reasons they killed Jesus....
They had that free will that aloowed them to do this....

God never took away the Roman's free will just to be able to work out the plan of salvation!!!!!

If God needed to step in and rob the Romans of their Free Will just to be able to work the plan of salvation? then that would mean that the God's plan required "CHEATING".....and a WEAK false-god to perform....
and that would mean that Jesus was a fake Christ and we should look for a different Christ to save us.
Correct me if I am wrong--but it appears from your answer above that you believe that it was possible that Jesus could have come to earth and been placed in a Roman jail instead of being crucified on the cross thus preventing His ultimate sacrifice our sins.

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:42 PM

Correct me if I am wrong--but it appears from your answer above that you believe that it was possible that Jesus could have come to earth and been placed in a Roman jail instead of being crucified on the cross thus preventing His ultimate sacrifice our sins.

i have said this before...but here goes.

god did not need to strip the romans of their normal human Free Will inorder to carry out His plan of salvation!

any questions?

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:43 PM

i have said this before...but here goes.

god did not need to strip the romans of their normal human Free Will inorder to carry out His plan of salvation!

any questions?

so in other words...
Man h*** Free Will and God is sovereign

alanmolstad

05-01-2014, 09:46 PM

god does not need to cheat.

man can have all the free will he wants......it cant ever interfere with god's sovereignty

Billyray

05-01-2014, 09:55 PM

i have said this before...but here goes.

god did not need to strip the romans of their normal human Free Will inorder to carry out His plan of salvation!

any questions?
I am still unclear of your position here Alan. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?

It appears that you believe that it was possible that Jesus could have come to earth and been placed in a Roman jail instead of being crucified on the cross thus preventing His ultimate sacrifice our sins.

Libby

05-01-2014, 11:54 PM

He's not saying that, Billy.

He's saying, God is perfectly capable of carrying out his plans, without interfering with man's free will. He's omniscient, is he not? He knows what we're going to do. So, there is zero possibility that his plans might be thwarted by man's agency.

Billyray

05-02-2014, 12:06 AM

He's not saying that, Billy.

He's saying, God is perfectly capable of carrying out his plans, without interfering with man's free will. . .
If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.

Billyray

05-02-2014, 12:08 AM

He's omniscient, is he not? He knows what we're going to do.
I am not sure how you are relating this to man's free will with and man's ability to thwart God's plans. Could you explain your thinking here Libby in a little bit more detail?

Libby

05-02-2014, 12:23 AM

I am not sure how you are relating this to man's free will with and man's ability to thwart God's plans. Could you explain your thinking here Libby in a little bit more detail?

Billy, I think, even you and I (and we are not God) have known someone so well, that we know what they might do, under certain circumstances. We can predict their behavior with a good deal of accuracy and count on it. And, we are not even omniscient.

Why would it be difficult for God to do the same, only much more accurately, because He actually KNOWS what we will do, under certain circumstances. He knew the High Priests would not accept Jesus, as the Son of God. He knew they would try to kill him...and eventually succeed, because that became their deepest, darkest desire.

God doesn't need to interfere with our will, in order to bring about his plans. He knows every hair on our head..and he also knows every thought in our head.

Billyray

05-02-2014, 01:19 AM

Billy, I think, even you and I (and we are not God) have known someone so well, that we know what they might do, under certain circumstances. We can predict their behavior with a good deal of accuracy and count on it. And, we are not even omniscient.

Why would it be difficult for God to do the same, only much more accurately, because He actually KNOWS what we will do, under certain circumstances. He knew the High Priests would not accept Jesus, as the Son of God. He knew they would try to kill him...and eventually succeed, because that became their deepest, darkest desire.

God doesn't need to interfere with our will, in order to bring about his plans. He knows every hair on our head..and he also knows every thought in our head.
Thanks for explaining your position a little bit more for me because that is exactly what I thought you were saying in a prior post but I just wanted to make sure. It appears that your position is that God has seen these free will creatures live their lives out from start to finish and THEN say HIS plan is man's plan which has already been played out. This position still means that man is in total control with everything that happens on this earth and that God can do nothing to stop it--He is simply telling us what we have already done in advance--so it is not HIS plan but rather man's plan.

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 02:10 AM

I am still unclear of your position here Alan. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?

It appears that you believe that it was possible that Jesus could have come to earth and been placed in a Roman jail instead of being crucified on the cross thus preventing His ultimate sacrifice our sins.

billy.....in your post above where you ask this question you quote my answer... for my answer is that god did not have to take away man's Free Will just to be able to carry out His plan of salvation....

what part of my answer gets you so mixed up?

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 02:12 AM

Thanks for explaining your position a little bit more for me because that is exactly what I thought you were saying in a prior post but I just wanted to make sure. It appears that your position is that God has seen these free will creatures live their lives out from start to finish and THEN say HIS plan is man's plan which has already been played out. This position still means that man is in total control with everything that happens on this earth and that God can do nothing to stop it--He is simply telling us what we have already done in advance--so it is not HIS plan but rather man's plan.Wrong!....Wrong!.....Wrong!.

are you even reading other posts?

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 02:20 AM

god does not need to cheat.

man can have all the free will he wants......it cant ever interfere with god's sovereignty

Billy...when you read the answer above......does your mind see.......see stuff that your eyes dont?

when you read over and over me saying "God is sovereign " does your mind change this to "God is helpless"?

when you read " Man's Free Will cant interfere with god' sovereignty"....does your mind change to something else?

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 02:24 AM

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 04:31 AM

God doesn't need to interfere with our will, in order to bring about his plans. He knows every hair on our head..and he also knows every thought in our head.

This is absolutely correct!...

Good ***!
(score 50 more points for Libby)

I tell people all the time that they don't have to worry that their own Free Will has somehow stumped the Lord's plans ...

It's like we are p***engers on a great ship.
While we are in our p***enger cabin we have the freedom to do whatever we want.
We can read, we can sleep, we can watch TV.
Even though we have this freedom, our freedom is no challenge at all to the command of the ship's Skipper to control where the ship goes.

So Free Will allows us to decide for ourselves what we want to do on our trip, yet this freedom has ZERO effect on the Skippers control and command of where we are going at all times!

This is just like what are lives are like.
Free Will allows us to make up our own plans, to do things we want to do, and to make our own decisions about questions that come up.

Yet at the same time , this Free Will of our never for one moment gets in the way of the Lord's Sovereignty over the universe.

On the ship the Skipper does not have to take away the Free Will of each single p***enger just to turn the ship and head to where he wants it to go....

Nor is the fact that each p***enger in each cabin has the freedom to decide for themselves if they want to sleep or watch TV mean that the Skipper has lost control of his ship and now can only sit back and watch.

Each p***enger gets to be the boss in their own little room, just as each person gets to be the boss in their own little lives.

All it means is that within our lives, as within the cabin of the ship, we each have been granted the freedom to decide for ourselves what we want to do.
This freedom ( or Free Will) is never a challenge to the Sovereignty of Him who alone is in command!

In fact, it is because God is truly sovereign that He was able to give onto us our Free Will.

Had God been not a true Sovereign , he would not have dared to grant us such Free Will......
He would not have dared because He would know it would make us too powerful for him to control!

Only a true God.....only a true Sovereign would be able to grant us Free Will.

and He did!

Do we control our world?.....well, in a way yes.
For it is true that each p***enger on our ship is in control of what he is doing while in his cabin.
But each cabin is just a part of the great ship that is always under the command of only one Skipper.
Just like whole world is under the total control of the Lord who is Sovereign.

The Skippers plans for the direction of the ship (and everyone on it) takes into account the fact that each p***enger has the freedom to decide when they will watch TV or when they will sleep, so too our own Lord's plans take into full account the fact that he has given us Free Will.
It's a non-issue.
The freedoms the p***engers enjoy are a total non-issue to the Skipper's plans,
In fact, the Skipper is the person who had to grant each p***enger their freedoms in the first place!

In the same way-
God's plans are not upset by human Free Will....

God does not have to just sit back and watch.

God does not have to "work-around" human Free Will.

But it is very true that God's plans take into full account all the Free Will of men.

alanmolstad

05-02-2014, 05:06 AM

So God foreknew me before time began.
And as he foreknew me he also predestined me to become a believer in Christ.

And within both the Lord's foreknowledge and His predestination plan for me there is a taking into full account that I have Free Will.

When the day came and God drew (attracted) me to the cross of Christ, He did so completely taking into account my Free Will.

So God was never for one moment challenged by my Free Will.

God was never for one moment forced to sit back and watch.

God was never for one moment in need of working-around my free will...

and God never for one moment needed to take away my Free Will.

My Free Will was always taken into account in the lord's plans.

disciple

05-02-2014, 05:41 AM

Does this sound like a warning to people who have no choice? I'm just saying.
Ezekiel 33:1-9
"Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he ****s the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not **** the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul."

Libby

05-02-2014, 10:31 AM

Good ****ogy (with the ship), Alan. :)

I hope that will satisfy Billy's question, about man running the show.

Libby

05-02-2014, 10:51 AM

Billyray

05-02-2014, 02:52 PM

billy.....in your post above where you ask this question you quote my answer... for my answer is that god did not have to take away man's Free Will just to be able to carry out His plan of salvation....

what part of my answer gets you so mixed up?
The fact that it doesn't make sense if you actually think about your position. If man has free will then they are free to choice to reject God's plan and follow their own plan if that is what they choose to do. If you believe that they are required to follow God's plan then they don't have free will.

Alan can you tell me what verses you are using to substantiate man's complete free will?

Billyray

05-02-2014, 03:03 PM

Good ****ogy (with the ship), Alan. :)

I hope that will satisfy Billy's question, about man running the show.
Here was my response to this issue from another thread

Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will?

If the p***engers had free will then they would be able to make any choice that they wanted to including total control of the ship. But they certainly have choices to make. As I said before both you and Alan are using the term free will but what you mean by this term is choice. But even Calvinists believe that man makes choices.

Let me add an example similar to the one above--but slightly more extreme--in attempt to show that it appears that you and Alan are using the word "free will" but the word "choice" is a more accurate description of what you mean.

Do you agree that a prison warden maintains control of a prison, without, hugely, interfering with his prisoners free will?

Libby

05-02-2014, 03:54 PM

Do you agree that a prison warden maintains control of a prison, without, hugely, interfering with his prisoners free will?

No, I wouldn't agree with that, at all, as a prison does interfere with one's free will, to a very large degree.

I agree that we might be getting tripped up in words and their definitions.

For the record, I don't believe that man's free will trumps God's, but I do believe God allows us our own will in regards to whether or not we choose him.

I don't believe man has "free will", in the same sense that God has free will, and can, literally, do anything. We are limited by the laws of nature (for example) and God is not. (Note: I think LDS believe that He is limited by certain universal laws).

We have limits, but we have enough "free will" to be ABLE to make real choices that involve moving towards God..or away from Him. I believe God allows this, because, otherwise, we could not be held accountable for our choices.

If we only have the ability to choose sin, without God's help, then we cannot be held responsible for NOT choosing God.

Libby

05-02-2014, 04:03 PM

Billyray

05-02-2014, 08:12 PM

No, I wouldn't agree with that, at all, as a prison does interfere with one's free will, to a very large degree.

Libby's example
Do you agree that a ship's captain maintains control of the ship, without, hugely, interfering with his p***engers free will?

Billyray's example (exaggerated form of Libby's example)
Do you agree that a prison warden maintains control of a prison, without, hugely, interfering with his prisoners free will?

You gave me an example to show how man indeed has "free will" and you said that my example does not. However my example is just like yours but with a little bit more punch to it. So let's compare to the and perhaps you will finally see that you example does not show free will. You can even go first and tell me why my example doesn't show free will.

Billyray

05-02-2014, 08:15 PM

Billy, there are hundreds of verses in the Bible that indicate man has free will and is expected to use it wisely.

A couple of people have already posted a few.

Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
This is a perfect example of "choice" not that man has complete free will. But I have already said that you and Alan are using the word "free will" when the word "choice" is closer to what you really mean. In fact the verse that you bring up uses the word "choose" NOT "free will".

The whole problem with using the word "free will" is that it is incorrect when discussing what we see over and over again in the Bible. If man truly had free will then all of history on this earth will be man's will and doing and this would make God an observer--unable to carry out his plan--because any intervention would take about man's "free will".

Would you say that allowing man to have "free will" is God's number one objective?

The Pheonix

05-02-2014, 08:45 PM

This makes the second time I have seen her in 5 years.. We had a great visit.. One thing we talked about was sin.. That before a Holy God Sin is Sin.. Whether it be murder, adultery, or lying, Sin is Sin and will all have the same result, spiritual death in the Lake of Fire.. My son in law a man new to the Church had the same thinking on the subject as I have seem here from the LDS and those that comfort the LDS in their error.. That there are levels of sin.. My daughter and I agreed that there is that one penalty for sin and it makes no difference what the sin is, it is all rebellion against God.. IHS jim"Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft", if it were same any other then there would be no comparison. The idea that all sin is the same, and that each equal is not believed by anyone who takes seriously the entire Bible. One can just read the sermon on the mount to see that certain sins bring certain punishments, just as certain good behaviors receive different blessings. If the only payment for sin were death; what sin kills newborns?

James Banta

05-02-2014, 09:01 PM

"Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft", if it were same any other then there would be no comparison. The idea that all sin is the same, and that each equal is not believed by anyone who takes seriously the entire Bible. One can just read the sermon on the mount to see that certain sins bring certain punishments, just as certain good behaviors receive different blessings. If the only payment for sin were death; what sin kills newborns?

According to the BofM what is the final judgment for sin? The Bible teaches us that even a liar find their place in the Lake of Fire. It tells us that hell in cast into the Lake of Fire, and as I was pointing out the BofM says "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell." (2 Nephi 9:34).

In the Bible we are taught that bein fearfil brings the same judgment as being a murderer, a liar the same as a *****monger:

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It doesn't matter what you a mere man believes is right.. The scripture teaches that the wages of sin is death.. It doesn't tell us of any divisions of death.. Death is death.. Even new born babies are sinners before God. Within their flesh is rebellion. Jesus told us that it is His will that our little one not be hindered from Him.. I believes that handles your objection of His justice.. The sin of being natural beings is the sin that would condemn them. As I have said Jesus forgave that of them and brings them to Himself.. IHS jim

Libby

05-02-2014, 09:12 PM

This is a perfect example of "choice" not that man has complete free will. But I have already said that you and Alan are using the word "free will" when the word "choice" is closer to what you really mean. In fact the verse that you bring up uses the word "choose" NOT "free will".

The whole problem with using the word "free will" is that it is incorrect when discussing what we see over and over again in the Bible. If man truly had free will then all of history on this earth will be man's will and doing and this would make God an observer--unable to carry out his plan--because any intervention would take about man's "free will".

I thought we had already made this clear. What, in your view, is the difference between having "choice" and having "free will"?

What this really boils down to, for me, is whether or not man has a choice in coming to Christ. A real choice. Not a choice that has actually been God's choice (alone)...which is what you really believe...and the thing with which I take issue.

Would you say that allowing man to have "free will" is God's number one objective?

No. In regards to man, his number one issue is salvation.

Billyray

05-02-2014, 09:18 PM

What this really boils down to, for me, is whether or not man has a choice in coming to Christ. A real choice. Not a choice that has actually been God's choice (alone)...which is what you really believe...and the thing with which I take issue.

Do you think that the Calvinist position is that man is forced to disobey the commandments OR forced to reject Christ against his will?

Libby

05-02-2014, 09:23 PM

Do you think that the Calvinist position is that man is forced to disobey the commandments OR forced to reject Christ against his will?

No.

I see it like asking a dead man to get up and walk....and, then, blaming him for not.

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:34 AM

Free will is not just the ability to make a choice....for even animals do that.
Even an ant in the backyard makes decisions.

The thing that is important with Free Will is the "FREE" part of the term.

We are Free, in will.
We dont have anyone or anything forcing us or directing us to make a choice.

This is why its not just the ability to make decisions, for animals with their basic instinct are able to make decisions.
But they are not Free.....most all the decisions of animals are driven by forces beyond the animal's understanding or control.

humans are free.....we have a 'will' that is free from control.

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:37 AM

As I said before it appears that you are using the word "free will" when you are simply trying to convey "choice". .

Then even now, after so many times of my posting you different, you still cant, or simply wont allow yourself to understand what Im saying......

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:40 AM

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.
You know it's like.....It's like you simply dont really care what I post,
because you invent things for me to have said, and then ask me questions about a position I do not hold at all....

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:45 AM

Correct me if I am wrong--.
you are hereby corrected.....

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:48 AM

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.
God's plan...............already took into account the free will of man!

God dies not have to strip people of free will just to do something in the universe!

what a sad god it would be if He could not deal with human free will in his plans....

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:50 AM

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. ........
Where do you get these ideas?

Your ideas are nuts.....

Billy over and over I have told you that god does not need to take away your free will just to do something in your life....

and yet you simply do not catch on.....why is that?

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:53 AM

God doesn't need to interfere with our will, in order to bring about his plans. He knows every hair on our head..and he also knows every thought in our head.

This is so true!

I told a story here on the forum about Dave and Jane, and how a person is always within the grasp of the Lord....and that god does not have to work-around our free will just to do things in the world....

God's plans already take into account FULLY.....and COMPLETELY.....the free will of man.

Our Free Will is not a problem for God to deal with......it's a non-issue for Him...

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:55 AM

This position still means that man is in total control with everything that happens on this earth and that God can do nothing to stop it--He is simply telling us what we have already done in advance--so it is not HIS plan but rather man's plan.

Where do you come up with these nutty ideas?

Is this Calvinism?
Is this how weak it is, that Calvinism needs to come out with ideas like this rather than admitting the truth of the Bible?

No wonder Walter Martin attacked Calvinism !

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 07:57 AM

The fact that it doesn't make sense if you actually think about your position. If man has free will then they are free to choice to reject God's plan and follow their own plan if that is what they choose to do. If you believe that they are required to follow God's plan then they don't have free will.

Alan can you tell me what verses you are using to substantiate man's complete free will?

Let me post this so you get an idea how Free will works in YOUR life...

"So God foreknew me before time began.
And as he foreknew me he also predestined me to become a believer in Christ.

And within both the Lord's foreknowledge and His predestination plan for me there is a taking into full account that I have Free Will.

When the day came and God drew (attracted) me to the cross of Christ, He did so completely taking into account my Free Will.

So God was never for one moment challenged by my Free Will.

God was never for one moment forced to sit back and watch.

God was never for one moment in need of working-around my free will...

and God never for one moment needed to take away my Free Will.

My Free Will was always taken into account in the lord's plans. "

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 08:03 AM

Do you agree that a prison warden maintains control of a prison, without, hugely, interfering with his prisoners free will?

as prisoners, people have their physical bodies restricted, but their free Will is not changed.

it's like when I hurt my back and I cant get out of bed for a few days.
My body is restricted, but my Free Will is not taken away froim me.

I still can make decisions, i still can think for myself, I still can own my own thoughts, free of the "force' of someone controlling my thoughts.

But my body can be bound,,,,,,my body can be changed,,,,,my body can be forced to do things like remain in bed, or in a jail cell....

So this is why "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to do things, or the ability to make decisions.....
Even ants in the backyard do things,, even ants make decisions based on their instinct.

But people a have FREE will.....it's this 'Free' that is the most important thing....
We are 'free' of the control of instinct, or of someone forcing us to make a decision that they want us to make.

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 08:10 AM

Good ****ogy (with the ship), Alan. :)

I hope that will satisfy Billy's question, about man running the show.
Thanks Libby......

The truth is that a long, long time ago I attended a great bible School, and in a cl*** we had a teacher that asked us to write down our conclusions about Calvinism.
In the cl*** of students there were a bunch of guys who were very "militant Calvinists"....so they tended to gang up on me at times.

But I learned how to talk about my views in ways that opened their eyes, and in a few cases changed some minds.

The idea of our lives being like 'p***engers on a great ship' was actually an idea I took from reading in the required works of the 'Church Fathers' of the Christian faith.
I changed the argument to make it updated.....and it really does help me show people how we live within god's plans for us...and within God's plans for us He has given us Free Will.

Free Will allows us to enjoy the trip!

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 08:12 AM

Alan can you tell me what verses you are using to substantiate man's complete free will?You want me to GOOGLE the number of times the term "Free Will" appears in the bible?

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 08:15 AM

Would you say that allowing man to have "free will" is God's number one objective?

Unless a person has free will, you cant love...

Free will allows us to love and return love of another.

Free will is the thing that makes us responsible....

It's not just the simple concept of being able to make a decision!
Rather it's about the way we are able to make decisions free of anyone forcing us to conform to their will.....

We are FREE!

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 08:20 AM

I thought we had already made this clear. What, in your view, is the difference between having "choice" and having "free will"?

.animals can chose.
My cat makes decisions.
My cat has no free will however.

'free" will is to make a decision free of any form of force being put on the person, that makes them decide one thing over another.

if you decide to rob a bank, that is free will...
But if someone straps a bomb on your chest and forces you to go rob a bank or they will **** you up...and you agree to rob the bank, you have made a decision,.
BUT that is just deciding something and is not 'free will'

when dealing with free will you always have to remember that the important part is the 'FREE" in free will....

Libby

05-03-2014, 11:00 AM

Thanks Libby......

The truth is that a long, long time ago I attended a great bible School, and in a cl*** we had a teacher that asked us to write down our conclusions about Calvinism.
In the cl*** of students there were a bunch of guys who were very "militant Calvinists"....so they tended to gang up on me at times.

But I learned how to talk about my views in ways that opened their eyes, and in a few cases changed some minds.

The idea of our lives being like 'p***engers on a great ship' was actually an idea I took from reading in the required works of the 'Church Fathers' of the Christian faith.
I changed the argument to make it updated.....and it really does help me show people how we live within god's plans for us...and within God's plans for us He has given us Free Will.

Free Will allows us to enjoy the trip!

Ah, well, very good. And, yes, the experience here on earth would certainly be much less without our agency. It would also make us a lot less responsible for our actions...which is a major point, in all of this.

James Banta

05-03-2014, 11:34 AM

Ah, well, very good. And, yes, the experience here on earth would certainly be much less without our agency. It would also make us a lot less responsible for our actions...which is a major point, in all of this.

If a person sees that sin and comes to Jesus in faith to have Him deal with it just what is major point of sin to us? What responsible do we have for our sin is He took it all from us and nailed it to the cross..

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

But then I believe the Bible ALL of it is the inerrant word of God.. Remember when you ***ured me that much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is not His word? With beliefs like that Libby how could you wonder why I doubt your commitment to Jesus? IHS jim

Billyray

05-03-2014, 11:45 AM

You know it's like.....It's like you simply dont really care what I post,
because you invent things for me to have said, and then ask me questions about a position I do not hold at all....
Alan I am not inventing things about your position I am simply telling you what your position would be if you are consistent with your ***ertion that man has free will as defined in the dictionary. Here it is again for you

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.

Billyray

05-03-2014, 12:07 PM

Do you think that the Calvinist position is that man is forced to disobey the commandments OR forced to reject Christ against his will?

No.

Good. We finally agree on something.

I see it like asking a dead man to get up and walk....and, then, blaming him for not.
You said above that man is not force to disobey the commandments OR forced to reject Christ against his will but then you turn around and try to blame God instead of man for his willing choices.

Let's look at YOUR position to see if it is really different
1. God gives us commandments to follow
2. Man is given a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Man is responsible for the choices he makes.
4. Man is unable to keep the commandments (asking a dead man to get up and walk....and, then, blaming him for not.)
5. Therefore God is to blame NOT man (Libby's criticism--which applies equally to her own beliefs)

Libby

05-03-2014, 12:30 PM

Good. We finally agree on something.

You said above that man is not force to disobey the commandments OR forced to reject Christ against his will but then you turn around and try to blame God instead of man for his willing choices.

Let's look at YOUR position to see if it is really different
1. God gives us commandments to follow
2. Man is given a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Man is responsible for the choices he makes.
4. Man is unable to keep the commandments (asking a dead man to get up and walk....and, then, blaming him for not.)
5. Therefore God is to blame NOT man (Libby's criticism--which applies equally to her own beliefs)

If I were a Calvinist, you would be right. I would be "blaming" God (or rather, giving Him responsibility for whether or not I turn to Him). That's what you do, Billy. I do not blame God, because I know that we, alone, are responsible for whether or not we answer that call, to come to Christ.

Billyray

05-03-2014, 12:32 PM

If I were a Calvinist, you would be right. I would be "blaming" God (or rather, giving Him responsibility for whether or not I turn to Him). That's what you do, Billy. I do not blame God, because I know that we, alone, are responsible for whether or not we answer that call, to come to Christ.
Libby you are not a Calvinist and yet you believe

1. God gives us commandments to follow
2. Man is given a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Man is responsible for the choices he makes.
4. Man is unable to keep the commandments

Right?

Libby

05-03-2014, 12:41 PM

If a person sees that sin and comes to Jesus in faith to have Him deal with it just what is major point of sin to us? What responsible do we have for our sin is He took it all from us and nailed it to the cross..

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I was speaking, specifically, about whether or not we turn to Christ, of our own free will. Do you believe we make that decision, ourselves, or does God make that decision for us?

[/B]But then I believe the Bible ALL of it is the inerrant word of God.. Remember when you ***ured me that much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is not His word? With beliefs like that Libby how could you wonder why I doubt your commitment to Jesus? IHS jim

I don't deny I've had struggles with the O.T. I've had struggles with a lot of things (I don't know anyone who hasn't struggled, in their own way, with their own issues). But, most of it I do, eventually, turn over to God. I am in God's hands, James. It's really not your place to "worry" about my commitment to Christ. You take care of weeding out your own sins and your own issues and stop perpetually judging others. How about we both try to focus more on the "fruits of the Spirit"?

neverending

05-03-2014, 01:40 PM

I was speaking, specifically, about whether or not we turn to Christ, of our own free will. Do you believe we make that decision, ourselves, or does God make that decision for us?

I don't deny I've had struggles with the O.T. I've had struggles with a lot of things (I don't know anyone who hasn't struggled, in their own way, with their own issues). But, most of it I do, eventually, turn over to God. I am in God's hands, James. It's really not your place to "worry" about my commitment to Christ. You take care of weeding out your own sins and your own issues and stop perpetually judging others. How about we both try to focus more on the "fruits of the Spirit"?

Libby,
For me I have to say that the Holy Spirit was working in my life for a very long time before I came to know the true Jesus Christ and accepted Him as my Savior. As a young girl I always felt different about church and attending my meetings made me feel like an outsider looking in. Sure, I went through the motions of attending church and holding church positions but I was doing all those things NOT to please God but to please my parents for it was expected of me. Call it being a hypocrite at that time for yes, that's what I was but I must say that when the time came when I truly understood the problems with Mormonism and found the true Jesus Christ, not only was I angry for realizing I'd been lied to all my life but I was lead to God, to choose Him to follow, not JS. So as for free will, YES, I chose to leave Mormonism and accept Christ but I know that the Holy Spirit had been leading me to that point for years; it was God's plan for me all along. God knows who will come to Him, He knows every choice we will make, there is nothing that surprises God. When horrible things happen to man, such as natural disasters or wars, God knows and He can step in anytime if He so chooses. So, wouldn't you then say that God has free will? Remember, everything is by His will, not ours, He is in control of all things. Why is it that during a tornado, one home is spared and another destroyed? Many things happen in order for us to grow and lean on God, and have faith.

Libby

05-03-2014, 02:59 PM

YES, I chose to leave Mormonism and accept Christ but I know that the Holy Spirit had been leading me to that point for years; it was God's plan for me all along. God knows who will come to Him, He knows every choice we will make, there is nothing that surprises God.

Hi Neverending......I agree with this completely. I also believe God has been leading me/drawing me to Him, all of my life. Sometimes, I listened, sometimes, I didn't. But, I gained some wonderful experiences, when I did listen, and whatever church I was attending, at the time, really had little bearing on that.

I've had some wonderful spiritual experiences, while attending my current church (which is Calvinist)...even though I have many disagreements with the doctrine.

Billyray

05-03-2014, 06:13 PM

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 06:19 PM

Alan I am not inventing things about your position I am simply telling you what your position would be if you are consistent with your ***ertion that man has free will as defined in the dictionary. Here it is again for you

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.
It is my REAL position that God is Sovereign

your ideas are foolish and silly

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 06:20 PM

"So God foreknew me before time began.
And as he foreknew me he also predestined me to become a believer in Christ.

And within both the Lord's foreknowledge and His predestination plan for me there is a taking into full account that I have Free Will.

When the day came and God drew (attracted) me to the cross of Christ, He did so completely taking into account my Free Will.

So God was never for one moment challenged by my Free Will.

God was never for one moment forced to sit back and watch.

God was never for one moment in need of working-around my free will...

and God never for one moment needed to take away my Free Will.

My Free Will was always taken into account in the lord's plans. "

Libby

05-03-2014, 06:44 PM

Libby you are not a Calvinist and yet you believe

1. God gives us commandments to follow
2. Man is given a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Man is responsible for the choices he makes.
4. Man is unable to keep the commandments

Right?

Yes, I believe those things.

Man is responsible for his sin. But, he is not responsible for his "unbelief", if he is, as a dead man, and "cannot" turn to God, unless God chooses to regenerate him.

alanmolstad

05-03-2014, 06:54 PM

Yes, I believe those things.

Man is responsible for his sin. But, he is not responsible for his "unbelief", if he is, as a dead man, and "cannot" turn to God, unless God chooses to regenerate him.
you are held to give account for the way you responded to the light you received from Heaven.

The Pheonix

05-03-2014, 07:17 PM

According to the BofM what is the final judgment for sin? The Bible teaches us that even a liar find their place in the Lake of Fire. It tells us that hell in cast into the Lake of Fire, and as I was pointing out the BofM says "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell." (2 Nephi 9:34).

In the Bible we are taught that bein fearfil brings the same judgment as being a murderer, a liar the same as a *****monger:

It doesn't matter what you a mere man believes is right.. The scripture teaches that the wages of sin is death.. It doesn't tell us of any divisions of death.. Death is death.. Even new born babies are sinners before God. Within their flesh is rebellion. Jesus told us that it is His will that our little one not be hindered from Him.. I believes that handles your objection of His justice.. The sin of being natural beings is the sin that would condemn them. As I have said Jesus forgave that of them and brings them to Himself.. IHS jimI would suggest you spend more time in Matthew 5-7, to find blessing for certain behavior brings certain blessing, as well as from the Savior himself what will happen if we just confess him and not obey the will of our father in heaven.

RealFakeHair

05-03-2014, 07:40 PM

I would suggest you spend more time in Matthew 5-7, to find blessing for certain behavior brings certain blessing, as well as from the Savior himself what will happen if we just confess him and not obey the will of our father in heaven.
According to LDSinc. Teachings you can't know all of the mormon's god's wills to obey. There is no way to obey the mormon god's will if you don't know them all. Do you know them all?

James Banta

05-03-2014, 09:56 PM

[Libby;156095]I was speaking, specifically, about whether or not we turn to Christ, of our own free will. Do you believe we make that decision, ourselves, or does God make that decision for us?

The Holy Spirit tells us that The Father draws us to Jesus. That we can't come without The Father making it possible (John 6:44). Since that is a teaching of Jesus it is the truth.. The same truth that Jesus tells us when He commands us to come unto Him.. Both being true we must deal with that fact that the Father draws us and we must come to Jesus. So we come but only as we are called by the Father to do so..

I don't deny I've had struggles with the O.T. I've had struggles with a lot of things (I don't know anyone who hasn't struggled, in their own way, with their own issues). But, most of it I do, eventually, turn over to God. I am in God's hands, James. It's really not your place to "worry" about my commitment to Christ. You take care of weeding out your own sins and your own issues and stop perpetually judging others. How about we both try to focus more on the "fruits of the Spirit"?

I was only going by that which you told us about your own faith.. That wasn't a judgment from me you judged yourself faithless. If that has changed I praise God.. Calling you out of the darkness of Eastern philosophies is not judging you anymore than Paul was judging the Atheaians on MARS hill for their worship of idols.. Peter judged Ananias, with Sapphira for their lies.. We all judge and we all are judged.. We are commanded to make righteous judgments.. If I have brought up a sin that you have taken to Jesus I praise you for that and ask for your forgiveness for not knowing of your change of heart..

I don't wish to make unfair judgments of anyone and I don't believe I am when I call you away from your pandering of a religion that is so clearly outside the commandments of God.. There in One and only one God Libby. To say that the LDS worship that God while they insist that there are three Gods and even those have NOT BEEN GOD from everlasting and will not continue into everlasting as the only God is flat wrong and actually allows them to continue in their idolatry without a warning.. That isn't a sin against me.. It is a sin against the LDS one that God will remind you..

Yes we all have problems that the Holy Spirit is working of to conform us into the image of our Lord Jesus. We must allow Him the openness to allow His will to become ours.. It is never His will to allow anyone to pander to error.. Elijah showed God's power as much greater than Baal's that he even taunted Baal's priests.. I don't do that but I do draw a clear line between their false teaching and the truth we have that is Christ Jesus.. IHS jim