My daughter came into town yesterday. [Archive] - Page 3

Libby

05-03-2014, 11:39 PM

The Holy Spirit tells us that The Father draws us to Jesus. That we can't come without The Father making it possible (John 6:44). Since that is a teaching of Jesus it is the truth.. The same truth that Jesus tells us when He commands us to come unto Him.. Both being true we must deal with that fact that the Father draws us and we must come to Jesus. So we come but only as we are called by the Father to do so..

Yes, I know the Father draws us, but same question I am asking Billy. Does he draw everyone or just a select few? Does God choose who will be saved or does He draw everyone and chooses those whom He knows will choose Him (of their own free will)?

I was only going by that which you told us about your own faith.. That wasn't a judgment from me you judged yourself faithless. If that has changed I praise God.. Calling you out of the darkness of Eastern philosophies is not judging you anymore than Paul was judging the Atheaians on MARS hill for their worship of idols.. Peter judged Ananias, with Sapphira for their lies.. We all judge and we all are judged.. We are commanded to make righteous judgments.. If I have brought up a sin that you have taken to Jesus I praise you for that and ask for your forgiveness for not knowing of your change of heart..

Fair enough...and I have had a LOT of questions and "bumps" along my spiritual path...but, truly, I have never been "faithless". My faith has always been in Jesus Christ.

I don't wish to make unfair judgments of anyone and I don't believe I am when I call you away from your pandering of a religion that is so clearly outside the commandments of God.. There in One and only one God Libby. To say that the LDS worship that God while they insist that there are three Gods and even those have NOT BEEN GOD from everlasting and will not continue into everlasting as the only God is flat wrong and actually allows them to continue in their idolatry without a warning.. That isn't a sin against me.. It is a sin against the LDS one that God will remind you..

I don't "pander", James. My comments are sincere and from the heart. I didn't say anything about "LDS", in general. I don't judge whole groups of people. That's never a good idea. As I said, before, there are all kinds, in every religion, and I know for a fact that there are LDS who have a real relationship with Jesus Christ. I know that because I was one of them...and I've known many other ex-Mormons (including your own wife) who have said the same thing.

Yes we all have problems that the Holy Spirit is working of to conform us into the image of our Lord Jesus. We must allow Him the openness to allow His will to become ours.. It is never His will to allow anyone to pander to error.. Elijah showed God's power as much greater than Baal's that he even taunted Baal's priests.. I don't do that but I do draw a clear line between their false teaching and the truth we have that is Christ Jesus.. IHS jim

When it comes to "doctrine", I agree. When it comes to judging individuals, like the people on this board, I absolutely disagree that you have that right or duty. That belongs to God alone.

Billyray

05-03-2014, 11:40 PM

libby you are not a calvinist and yet you believe

1. God gives us commandments to follow
2. Man is given a choice to obey or disobey the commandments
3. Man is responsible for the choices he makes.
4. Man is unable to keep the commandments

right?

yes, i believe those things.

Man is responsible for his sin. But, he is not responsible for his "unbelief", if he is, as a dead man, and "cannot" turn to god, unless god chooses to regenerate him.

what is the basis for sending a person to hell?

sin.

Correct. The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they were given commandments and they failed to keep those commandments. Yet man is INCAPABLE of keeping ALL of the commandments. Therefore using YOUR same argument--man is not responsible rather God is responsible. This is the same exact objection that you are raising against Calvinism--yet your own beliefs are guilty of the same offense.

Billyray

05-03-2014, 11:43 PM

Sin.

But, that is an entirely different subject, Billy. We're talking about salvation . .
Not a different subject at all--perhaps you should think this one through a little bit. A man can live with God again if he keeps ALL of the commandments. He is given commandments. He is responsible for keeping those commandments. Yet he is incapable of keeping the commandments. Same exact argument.

Libby

05-03-2014, 11:49 PM

Not a different subject at all--perhaps you should think this one through a little bit. A man can live with God again if he keeps ALL of the commandments. He is given commandments. He is responsible for keeping those commandments. Yet he is incapable of keeping the commandments. Same exact argument.

Okay, here is how it's different. God gave us a way to overcome, in Jesus Christ.

But, Calvinists are saying, he only gave that opportunity to a few people, not all (which is completely anti-Biblical). And, that he CHOSE those people, based on nothing more than His "good pleasure"?? That is a very wrong interpretation, IMO (and the opinion of MANY other Christians).

Billyray

05-03-2014, 11:50 PM

Libby

05-03-2014, 11:52 PM

Billyray

05-04-2014, 12:54 AM

Billyray

05-04-2014, 01:18 AM

But, Calvinists are saying, he only gave that opportunity to a few people, not all (which is completely anti-Biblical).
Here is another criticism that you have of Calvinism and again I am going to show you that you have the exact same belief. There are a lots of people who have lived on this earth who have never even heard about Christ. They were never given "that opportunity".

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:18 AM

No, but we do have a "real choice" in whether or not we choose Jesus Christ.
yes,very true.
This is also why Calvinism is a false teaching....for it teaches men are little more than robots with no free will.

so sad....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:21 AM

Unless a person has free will, you cant love...

Free will allows us to love and return love of another.

Free will is the thing that makes us responsible....

It's not just the simple concept of being able to make a decision!
Rather it's about the way we are able to make decisions free of anyone forcing us to conform to their will.....

We are FREE!

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:25 AM

If man has complete free will then in order to be consistent with your position you must accept the fact that man is in control of world events--not God. With this position man CAN thwart God's plans and God can't do anything about it.FALSE

Billy you don't need to rob man of free will just so your god can rule....

if that was true you would be worshiping the wrong god

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:36 AM

I thought we had already made this clear. What, in your view, is the difference between having "choice" and having "free will"?

.
Free will is not just the ability to make a choice...(that is why Billy is just so wrong).
he thinks I am talking about just being able to make a choice....I'm not.

Free will is the ability to make a "FREE" choice.

We humans are the only thing on the earth than makes a decision that is truly free.
Animals that share our earth are able to make their own decisions...but the difference is their decisions are all based mostly on instinct.

Humans can base their decisions on their own private thoughts if they want...or on anythin they want...thereare no rules we must follow....no plan we have to keep.....

So Free will is not the same as making a decision or a choice.

Free will is the ability to make "FREE" decisions.
No power is controlling us...we are free!

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:42 AM

Here is another criticism that you have of Calvinism and again I am going to show you that you have the exact same belief. There are a lots of people who have lived on this earth who have never even heard about Christ.

They were never given "that opportunity".

It doesn't matter.

they still have free will, and so they still have the opportunity to respond to the calling of God to them in their lives.

God calls all people,,,not just a lucky few like the foolish Calvinists teach...

ALL people!

and as Walter Martin showed us in the VIDEO I posted, no person is sent to hell just because they never had an opportunity to hear about the person of Jesus.

They end up in hell the same way any person might, by rejecting the light from heaven they received....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:46 AM

Sin.

But, that is an entirely different subject, Billy. We're talking about salvation and whether or not God selects a, relatively, few individuals for salvation (the Calvinist belief), or if he gives everyone (the whole world) an opportunity to come to Him of their own free will.

great point Libby!

God has to draw all men, or there is no point to the christian church....

God has to draw all men or Jesus is a liar and we are fools to believe him

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:09 AM

yes,very true.
This is also why Calvinism is a false teaching....for it teaches men are little more than robots with no free will.

so sad....
Alan--per Libby's argument--do you have a "real choice" to obey ALL of the commandments?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:13 AM

great point Libby!

God has to draw all men, or there is no point to the christian church....

God has to draw all men or Jesus is a liar and we are fools to believe him
You still haven't shown me a verse that backs up your claim that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Let alone the fact that not ALL men have even heard about Christ. Do you think that those who have never heard about Christ were drawn to HIM by the Father?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:20 AM

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:22 AM

Alan--per Libby's argument--do you have a "real choice" to obey ALL of the commandments?God never asked anyone to do things that we could not do..
Even when Peter was told to walk on water, he found that he could....

Jesus wept because the people 'would not".....he did not say they 'could not'

if we were told to do something that we simply could never do in a million years, like flap our arms and fly, then we would never be found at fault for not doing them.

The moment God holds us as being guilty of something you also know that you 'could have'....but you would not do it....

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:23 AM

deleted--duplicate post of #523

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:24 AM

You said before that God draws ALL men to Christ but since not ALL men have heard of Christ how can that be?

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:26 AM

Romans 1:20

as there is a universe that is still up and running and reflecting the Creator, it takes away any idea that people were unaware of God's calling on their hearts

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:27 AM

You still haven't shown me a verse that backs up your claim that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Let alone the fact that not ALL men have even heard about Christ. Do you think that those who have never heard about Christ were drawn to HIM by the Father?

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:30 AM

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
That is absolutely true that ALL men know that there is a God and ALL men have a basic understanding of right and wrong. But this doesn't say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Yet you still make that claim.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:33 AM

So in the verse we do see the fact that God is reaching out to all of us....all the time...

so we cant hide and say, "i never knew"

We all know for we all can see the universe that is showing us the nature of God.

This helps us understand why some people will be found in heaven one day who lived far away from where the church reached...

They had the word of god written on their hearts...the law of their personal heart...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:36 AM

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You believe it but you have not shown me yet. How can a person be drawn to Christ when they haven't even heard about HIM? AND you still haven't got a single verse in the entire Bible that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:37 AM

so as we have seen, the father is drawing all men to himself.

and as we see in the video, no person ends up in Hell just because they never heard of Jesus....

Thank God!

john 3;16 rules!

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:38 AM

so as we have seen, the father is drawing all men to himself.

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:38 AM

and as we see in the video, no person ends up in Hell just because they never heard of Jesus....

What is the basis for God sending anyone to Hell?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:45 AM

What is the basis for God sending anyone to Hell?god doesn't....

see the video

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:45 AM

Alan--per Libby's argument--do you have a "real choice" to obey ALL of the commandments?

God never asked anyone to do things that we could not do. . .

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Is that your position now?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:46 AM

god doesn't....
You don't believe in Hell?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:46 AM

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Is that your position now?

now?......LOL

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:47 AM

You don't believe in Hell?

you never watched the video I see?...the video says it better than I ever could..

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:49 AM

now?......LOL
So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. So that is your position?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:50 AM

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?
its the same thing..

God was drawing all men to himself though the cross of Christ.

When Christ was lifted up he drew all of us to himself...

This is the point of the cross...God was giving all of the human race something to look at....something to be attracted to...

not just some of us...not a lucky few...

But all of the human race was given a gift...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:50 AM

you never watched the video I see?...the video says it better than I ever could..
I am asking you what you believe NOT what the person in the video believes. So you do you believe that there is a Hell or that everyone goes to Heaven?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:52 AM

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. So that is your position?

God never once asked a person to do anything that they could not do...

When Peter was asked to walk on water peter did...

so there is your answer..

if we are given a task by the Lord, it is ONLY because God knows we can do it...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:53 AM

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?

its the same thing..

God was drawing all men to himself though the cross of Christ.

When Christ was lifted up he drew all of us to himself...

This is the point of the cross...God was giving all of the human race something to look at....something to be attracted to...

not just some of us...not a lucky few...

But all of the human race was given a gift...
But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:54 AM

I am asking you what you believe NOT what the person in the video believes. So you do you believe that there is a Hell or that everyone goes to Heaven?

its in the video....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:55 AM

But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.nope...same thing.

Christ did all he saw the father doing....

Jesus could not do anything except what he was sent to do by the father..

Jesus came to do only the will of the father, not his own...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 03:55 AM

God never once asked a person to do anything that they could not do...

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:58 AM

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:01 AM

works do not save anyone.....

doing things with my arms and legs dont get my heart right with god....

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:02 AM

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:02 AM

so the path to the father always leads to christ..."Follow me" is the only requirement...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:04 AM

Matthew 19:20

what did Jesus say?

keeping the commandments is not enough to be what?????
The verse that you gave me didn't answer my question at all so here it is again for you. (BTW you have misunderstood that section of scripture if you believe that the man was sinless--despite his own claim)

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:04 AM

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are the same person?same Lord,,,same God...different persons within the one God.

So they cant be separated and somehow teach that one drew us and not the others..

Trust me, if one drew, the other drew too!

Thats why we can have hope...
For our hope is that God was drawing all men to himself in Christ Jesus...

If God was not drawing all men to himself in Jesus we are fools....and we are still in our sins

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:06 AM

The verse that you gave me didn't answer my question so here it is again for you.

Of the commandments that Jesus told the man to follow, how many had the guy followed?......many?....most?...or all?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:07 AM

many?

most?

or all?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:09 AM

But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

nope...same thing.

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are the same person?

same Lord,,,same God...different persons within the one God.

So they cant be separated and somehow teach that one drew us and not the others..
. . .
So if they are different persons then saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:09 AM

""All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack"

many?.....most?...or all?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:10 AM

So if they are different persons then saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

nope.....same thing

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:11 AM

""All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack"

many?.....most?...or all?
The man in question did not obey ALL of the commandment.

So here is my question again for you.

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:12 AM

many?...most?...or all?

what does it say?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:13 AM

many?...most?...or all?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:13 AM

So if they are different persons then saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

nope.....same thing
If I said that Christ died on the cross would it be the same thing to say that the Father died on the cross or the Holy Spirit died on the cross?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:14 AM

and for anyone watching at home, the correct answer is....ALL !

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:16 AM

many?...most?...or all?

what does it say?
The man CLAIMS to have obeyed all of the commandments--Jesus never says that he obeyed all of the commandments. Big difference.

So here is my question again for you.

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:16 AM

so the correct answer to my question points out the flaw in the thinking that just keeping a law gets a person to heaven....it dont!

works dont save us....nothing we can "do" with our arms and legs get our heart right with god...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:17 AM

and for anyone watching at home, the correct answer is....ALL !
Do you honestly believe that the man who made that claim had lived a perfect life not ever committing a single sin?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:18 AM

so the correct answer to my question points out the flaw in the thinking that just keeping a law gets a person to heaven....it dont!

If a person kept all of the commandments all of the time--living a life just like Jesus--what would be the basis for sending that person to Hell?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:20 AM

Jesus then goes on to next tell the guy that regardless of the kept Law you still have to get your heart right with God...

and Jesus tells the man how to do this...

"Follow Me"

This was the same thing that Jesus asked Peter and the 12 to do at the start when he asked them to "Follow me"

The difference is that Peter and the 12 dropped everything and went with Jesus, whereas this guy walks away feeling sad over how it would hurt to be poor...

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:22 AM

If a person kept all of the commandments all of the time--living a life just like Jesus--what would be the basis for sending that person to Hell?
Matthew 7:23

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:23 AM

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:25 AM

Jesus then goes on to next tell the guy that regardless of the kept Law you still have to get your heart right with God...

Then by your own admission he didn't keep ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Remember that during Christ's lifetime they were still under the Law.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:27 AM

Do you honestly believe that the man who made that claim had lived a perfect life not ever committing a single sin?

I believe only what the text says....I dont need to force it to say things it does not say...
Would you say that a person who keeps ALL of the commandments ALL of the time would be considered "good"?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:28 AM

Then by your own admission he didn't keep ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Remember that during Christ's lifetime they were still under the Law.
Jesus listed the Laws for the guy...so you and I don't have to guess if the guy kept the right laws or not,,,
Jesus lists them for him!!!!!!

and how many of the ones that Jesus listed did the guy keep?...many...most?..or all?

(LOL, You wont answer that question because you see now how your whole position is destroyed in the words of the Bible ...if my own positions were as weak I would not like the question too)

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:33 AM

Would you say that a person who keeps ALL of the commandments ALL of the time would be considered "good"?

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

Good?....no, I think the word I would use would be "lacking"

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:34 AM

Jesus listed the Laws for the guy...so you and I don't have to guess if the guy kept the right laws or not,,,Jesus lists them for him!!!!!!

and how many of the ones that Jesus listed did the guy keep?...many...most?..or all?

(LOL, You wont answer that question because you see now how your whole position is destroyed in the words of the Bible ...if my own positions were as weak I would not like the question too)
Why laugh when I have answered your question AND you are wrong on this point and I am right. Now if anything is funny the irony of the situation is funny.

And here is your answer again--He absolutely did not keep them all.

Can you honestly say that you believe that this man kept ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

And if you ever feel inclined to answer my question that would be much appreciated. Here it is again for you. If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:35 AM

many?......most?...or all?.....LOL

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:36 AM

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

Good?....no, I think the word I would use would be "lacking"
If the man was lacking something then by your own admission he did not keep all of the commandments.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:36 AM

many?......most?...or all?.....LOL
Perhaps you didn't read my post. Here it is again for you.

Why laugh when I have answered your question AND you are wrong on this point and I am right. Now if anything is funny the irony of the situation is funny.

And here is your answer again--He absolutely did not keep them all.

Can you honestly say that you believe that this man kept ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

And if you ever feel inclined to answer my question that would be much appreciated. Here it is again for you. If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:39 AM

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?\and my and the Bible's answer is:
Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

keeping laws...following rules...doing things....finishing works, , or any stuff we do with our arms and legs dont actually do squat as far as getting a person's heart right with God.....

Jesus points this out to the Jewish teachers who made such a big deal about keeping the Law.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:43 AM

so here we see the answer to your question.
here we have a guy ask about what laws he needs to keep?...and Jesus answers him and lists the laws.

and the guy has kept them from the start....

But yet, even after a whole lifetime of keeping the law the final thing we learn is that the guy was still lacking a heart that would follow Jesus.

THAT one thing,,,that one lone thing is far more important than all the law-keeping he did...

law-keeping is a moot point compared to being ready and willing to follow christ

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:45 AM

many?....Most?...or all?

LOL, dont worry, I no longer expect you will allow yourself to just read the Bible and answer such questions

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:50 AM

\and my and the Bible's answer is:
Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

keeping laws...following rules...doing things....finishing works, , or any stuff we do with our arms and legs dont actually do squat as far as getting a person's heart right with God.....

If a person has perfectly obeyed God's commandments what sin do you propose that he has committed?

Jesus points this out to the Jewish teachers who made such a big deal about keeping the Law.

But they hadn't kept the law.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:52 AM

many?....Most?...or all?

LOL, dont worry, I no longer expect you will allow yourself to just read the Bible and answer such questions
Perhaps you didn't read my response that I have now given you on multiple occasions now. Here it is again for you.

Why laugh when I have answered your question AND you are wrong on this point and I am right. Now if anything is funny the irony of the situation is funny.

And here is your answer again--He absolutely did not keep them all.

Can you honestly say that you believe that this man kept ALL of the commandments ALL of the time?

And if you ever feel inclined to answer my question that would be much appreciated. Here it is again for you. If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

Now can you tell me again why a person who has lived a perfect life and obeyed ALL of the commandments ALL of the time would not be considered "good"?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:57 AM

If a person has perfectly obeyed God's commandments what sin do you propose that he has committed?
.

what we see in this Bible story is that keeping all the Law is a moot point.
it does not change your heart at all..all it is is just dont stuff with your body...

saving faith does not come via works....works come with faith.

You cant do a bunch of works (like keeping all the law) and then think your heart now is right with God.

you cant stack up along list of things you did, (like healing the sick and casting out demons) and think that is the same as following Christ....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 04:58 AM

Now can you tell me again why a person who has lived a perfect life and obeyed ALL of the commandments ALL of the time would not be considered "good"?

because according to the text we can consider such a person still "lacking"....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:01 AM

any questions?....

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:01 AM

what we see in this Bible story is that keeping all the Law is a moot point. . .

The reason we can't be saved by the law or by following rules and regulations (commandments) is because nobody can keep the commandments and our only hope is to put our faith in Christ to save us from our sins.

1. If a person keeps ALL of the commandments ALL of the time what sin has he committed?

2. What would be the basis for sending a person to Hell if that person never committed a single sin--living a perfect life like Jesus?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:02 AM

20And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:04 AM

1. If a person keeps ALL of the commandments ALL of the time what sin has he committed?

the answer from the text makes it clear that keeping all the law is a moot point,
It did not help the guy at all have a heart that was ready and willing to follow Christ.

Following Christ is the only thing needed...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:05 AM

because according to the text we can consider such a person still "lacking"....
If a person kept all of the commandment and lived a perfect life he wouldn't be lacking. But go ahead and tell me again what a person who lived a perfect life--obedient to all the commandments--would be lacking?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:07 AM

20And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."

21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lackAs I said before by your own admission this guy didn't live a perfect life like you claim and didn't keep the law. Yet you then want me to believe that he did. Perhaps you could clarify your position a little bit more for me.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:07 AM

2. What would be the basis for sending a person to Hell if that person never committed a single sin--living a perfect life like Jesus?

things we do with our bodies are not the important issue...what is important is the faith in Jesus that you have....
That is why we will see people who lived lives filled with sin, in heaven.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:09 AM

the answer from the text makes it clear that keeping all the law is a moot point,

That is not the point of the text at all. The point of the text is that this guy thought he kept the law but he was far from it and Jesus was simply pointing that out to him in a gentle but effective way--since Jesus knew his heart and could pinpoint this guys errors.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:10 AM

.... Perhaps you could clarify your position a little bit more for me....Jesus then tells the guy what was lacking....and it sure was not another Jewish law....LOL

The same message told to the guy in the story is also told to us too>
We each receive this same request by the Lord to "Follow me"

Faith is all that matters

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:13 AM

so it is our relationship with Jesus that is key to our salvation.

remember, the text does not say, "We are saved by Grace though keeping the Law from birth"

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:13 AM

...Jesus then tells the guy what was lacking....and it sure was not another Jewish law....LOL

Sure it was.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:14 AM

This is why we will see people that had lives filled with sins in heaven....for its not keeping the law that got them to heaven, but their faith

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:16 AM

any questions?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:19 AM

so it is our relationship with Jesus that is key to our salvation.

I agree--since we ALL sin--we need a Savior to save us from our sins.

Can you tell me why Jesus died on the cross?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:20 AM

Can you tell me why Jesus died on the cross?God was drawing all men to himself in the cross...

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:21 AM

any questions?

How about the one that I keep asking that you haven't really answered.

What is the basis for sending a person who has lived all of the commandments all of the time--living a life just like Jesus--to Hell?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:23 AM

God was drawing all men to himself in the cross...
Alan with that answer all I can say is that you think that you know and understand the Bible but you need to take some time and read it again.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:25 AM

How about the one that I keep asking that you haven't really answered.

What is the basis for sending a person who has lived all of the commandments all of the time--living a life just like Jesus--to Hell?
asI said....keeping the law is a moot point in the story, because from the story we learn that even after a lifetime spent keeping the law he was still "lacking"

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:27 AM

God was drawing all men to himself on the cross....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:42 AM

questions?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 05:57 AM

I agree--since we ALL sin--we need a Savior to save us from our sins.

Can you tell me why Jesus died on the cross?

God was drawing all men to himself on the cross....
Alan the heart of the gospel message is that we all sin and fall short. We can't be saved by rules and regulations because we can't keep them. We are incapable of living a perfect life. The more rules that God gives us the more that we fail. But God sent His Son to die on the cross to pay for our sins--and those who place their faith in Him will be saved i.e. salvation. But what are we saved from? We are saved from the penalty for our sins because Jesus took our sins upon Himself for those who place their faith in Him. Anyway here are a couple of verses on this subject that might help you get a better understanding of the need for Christ to die on the cross.

Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 Cor 15
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I p***ed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

2 Cor 5
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 2
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 06:21 AM

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

Matthew 19:20

what did Jesus say?

keeping the commandments is not enough to be what?????

""All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack"[/SIZE]

many?.....most?...or all?

The man in question did not obey ALL of the commandment.

Would you say that a person who keeps ALL of the commandments ALL of the time would be considered "good"?

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

Good?....no, I think the word I would use would be "lacking"

Alan you won't listen to me and this topic is an important one because LDS also use these same verses in order to justify their works righteousness. I will include a couple of commentaries below for anyone interested in reading it along with the link.

David Guzik's Commentary on the Bible
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4019.htm

B. Jesus teaches on riches and following Him.

1. (Matthew 19:16-17) A man asks Jesus the most important question one can ask.
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
a. What good thing shall I do to inherit eternal life: This question demonstrates that this man, like all people by nature, has an orientation towards a works-righteousness.
b. Why do you call Me good? In this, Jesus does not deny His own goodness. Instead, He asks the man, “Do you understand what you are saying when you call Me good?”
c. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments: Jesus’ answer to the man’s question is straightforward. If you want to gain eternal life by your doing, you must keep the commandments - all of them, and in the fullest sense.

2. (Matthew 19:18-20) Jesus tests him by “the second table of the law” - the aspects of the Mosaic Law that deal with man’s relationship to men.
He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
a. You shall not murder . . .: Jesus asked the man about the commandments which primarily deal with a man’s relation to man. In response, the young man claimed All these things I have kept from my youth - claiming to fulfill all God’s commands regarding how we must treat other people.
b. All these things I have kept from my youth: It is fair to ask if this man really had kept these commandments. It is likely that he actually did keep them in a way that made him righteous in the eyes of men - in the sense that Paul could say concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless in Philippians 3:6. But he certainly did not keep them in the full and perfect sense in which Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount.
i. We can also know that this man had not perfectly kept the law, because he still knew that there was something missing in his life (What do I still lack?) There was still something lacking in his life, reflecting a lack in his relationship with God.
c. Mark 10:21 tells us that Jesus loved him in reply. Jesus has comp***ion on this man, so misguided as to think that he really could justify himself before God.

3. (Matthew 19:21-22) Jesus tests him by “the first table of the law” - the aspects of the Mosaic law which deal with man’s relationship to God.
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
a. Sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me: The call to forsake everything and follow Jesus is a call to put God first in all things. It is full obedience to the first table of the law, which dealt with a man’s relation to God.
b. He went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions: In this, the wealthy questioner fails utterly. Money is his god; he is guilty of idolatry, and this is why Jesus, knowing the man’s heart, asked him to renounce his possessions.
c. Both tables of the law will test every person before God. It isn’t enough to do good by our fellow man and be decent folk; we must do right by God, and give Him the glory and honor He deserves

ESV Study Bible Commentary - Matthew Chapter 19

Matt. 19:16 a man came up to him. Verses 16–22 have been called the story of the “rich young ruler” since he is rich (v. 22), young (v. 20), and a ruler (cf. Luke 18:18). He may have been a religious lay leader, quite possibly a Pharisee (because of the diligence he displays in following the law). After addressing Jesus as Teacher, a ***le of respect, he asks what good deed he must do to have eternal life. “Eternal life” is virtually synonymous with expressions such as “entering the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20) and being “saved” (19:25–26); it is the first occurrence of this expression in Matthew (cf. v. 29; 25:46). In the parallel accounts (Mark 10:17–22; Luke 18:18–23), the wording of the question and answer differs somewhat, but there is no contradiction, and it seems to be a case of different Gospels reporting different parts of the same conversation.

Matt. 19:17 There is only one who is good. Only in understanding God as infinitely good can the young man discover that human good deeds cannot earn eternal life. keep the commandments. Jesus is not teaching that good works can earn eternal life, for in vv. 21–22 he will show the man how far short he falls of keeping the first commandment (cf. Ex. 20:3) and the first of the two greatest commandments (cf. Deut. 6:5; Matt. 22:36–40). But obedience to the law is also an expression of belief in the truly good God who is the source of all good, including eternal life. Scripture elsewhere clearly affirms that salvation is a gift of God’s grace received through faith, and not by works (see notes on Eph. 2:8; 2:9–10).

Matt. 19:18–19 Which ones? Jesus gives a representative list of laws, including five commandments from the second half of the Decalogue (cf. Ex. 20:1–17; Deut. 5:7–21), and the second of the two greatest commandments (Lev. 19:18; cf. Matt. 22:36–40).

Matt. 19:20 All these I have kept. The man implies he has kept not only these, but the entire law, which they represent. He views his obedience to the law as complete, but he still senses that something is lacking.

Matt. 19:21 If you would be perfect. Jesus knows the man’s wealth has become his means to personal iden***y, power, and a sense of meaning in life—that it has become the idolatrous god of his life (cf. note on v. 17).

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 08:02 AM

Alan you won't listen to me and this topic is an important one because LDS also use these same verses in order to justify their works righteousness. I will include a couple of commentaries .....I remember posting a Walter Martin video commentary for you......

I Dont remember too many questions from you about its content however....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 08:08 AM

None of the Laws given man by the Lord are out of our reach to keep.

Doing the right thing (like come to Christ, or keep a Law) is something people "would not" do.

Jesus never says we "could not" do..

'Would not' means you can, but you wont do it.
'Could not" means you can NOT do something.

If there is a law that we are expected to follow and we fail to keep it, the reason is that we dont....not that we cant.

The failure is due to our hard hearts, not because we were designed wrong and cant.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 08:11 AM

... LDS also use these same verses in order to justify their works righteousness. ......

I don't care.

The truth is that a person is not saved by works.

and as far as 'Works Righteousness" goes?.....

There are two forms of "Righteousness found in the Text...

One of works....
One of Faith...

The Righteousness of works is found before men.
The Righteousness of Faith is before God.

Men cant see my faith, so they have to judge my Righteousness by looking at the works that I do.

God can see my heart, God knows my Faith, so before God I'm Righteous by Faith not by works.

James Banta

05-04-2014, 08:17 AM

I dont care.

The truth is that a person is not saved by works.

and as far as 'Works Righteousness" goes?.....

If we add the prepa***ion that I am sure Billy had in mind it would find you more receptive.. Try seeing it as "Works OF Righteousness. IHS jim

James Banta

05-04-2014, 08:19 AM

I don't care.

The truth is that a person is not saved by works.

and as far as 'Works Righteousness" goes?.....

There are two forms of "Righteousness found in the Text...

One of works....
One of Faith...

The Righteousness of works is found before men.
The Righteousness of Faith is before God.

Men cant see my faith, so they have to judge my Righteousness by looking at the works that I do.

God can see my heart, God knows my Faith, so before God I'm Righteous by Faith not by works.

Beautiful explanation of James 2.. Thank you.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 08:21 AM

Beautiful explanation of James 2.. Thank you.. IHS jimonce again.....they are not my words, but are Walter Martin's...

John T

05-04-2014, 08:33 AM

How about the one that I keep asking that you haven't really answered.

What is the basis for sending a person who has lived all of the commandments all of the time--living a life just like Jesus--to Hell?

There are TWO correct answers to that question, and they are complimentary, not contradictory.

The first is that it is based on a logical fallacy called "begging the question" and the nature of that logical fallacy is that you are asking a question that ***umes a condition-to-fact situation can be true. Therefore to ***ume for any reason that a person that any person can keep the keep the demands of the Law perfectly is an impossibility.

The second fallacy in the argument is that you seem to misconstrue the nature of Hell, For disobedient angels, it is a place where God will send them; but to construe from that, humans are likewise cast into hell is an error. For humans, hell is a free will, voluntary choice, and in exercising their free will humans choose to ignore the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ as their ONLY salvation. Therefore humans VOLUNTEER to go to hell. It is as simple as that.

Hope that what I posted is understandable.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 08:52 AM

. Therefore humans VOLUNTEER to go to hell. It is as simple as that.

.In the Walter Martin video, Walter says a few things like this too.
That no person ends up in Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ, but that the truth is that any person in hell ended up there only because they have rejected the Light from heaven they did receive.

So you are not in hell due to your ignorance, but because of your disobedience.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 09:16 AM

God was drawing all men to himself on the cross....
...Bump for Billy......

John T

05-04-2014, 10:49 AM

In the Walter Martin video, Walter says a few things like this too.
That no person ends up in Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ, but that the truth is that any person in hell ended up there only because they have rejected the Light from heaven they did receive.

So you are not in hell due to your ignorance, but because of your disobedience.

There are none who are in "innocent ignorance" God has revealed Himself, and His olan of salvation to the entire world:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Chapter 2

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Ain't no "wiggle room" here. It is cut and dried.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 12:57 PM

Billyray

05-04-2014, 01:10 PM

The second fallacy in the argument is that you seem to misconstrue the nature of Hell, For disobedient angels, it is a place where God will send them; but to construe from that, humans are likewise cast into hell is an error. For humans, hell is a free will, voluntary choice, and in exercising their free will humans choose to ignore the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ as their ONLY salvation. Therefore humans VOLUNTEER to go to hell. It is as simple as that.

The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they have broken God's commandments. IF they kept ALL of the commandments ALL of the time then they would live with God.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The Pheonix

05-04-2014, 01:37 PM

This is easy, Billy. Jacob was chosen by God to lead the people, rather than Esau, who was the oldest. That's all it's really about. God did not, literally, "hate" Esau. He just did something atypical, by not allowing the oldest to lead. Do you believe Esau went to hell? I don't.

The 1st part:

God's plan is like the cross.....the church....and his word.
God is sovereign and as such is more than able to work the things He does, without relying on robbing men of Free Will just to pull off some trick .
God does not need to make man weaker just so God can get off his **** and do a days work.

God is a true Sovereign....a true Sovereign has the ability to carry out His will while always insuring man's complete Free Will at all times.

At the start of this I posted something that now I think is time to review:

Man Has Free Will.......and.....God Is Sovereign!
Good points, we do have free will. Free will comes in second place as one of God's greatest gifts, the first is life or "Eternal Life". To quote someone else; "God's greatest give is life, the second greatest gift is the power to direct that life".

Having attended two Churches growing up, "Baptist and Church of Christ", both of which reject Calvinism. Pastors, Elders in CoC (as well as my parents), that any who would think Christ will deny Grace to those that seek him out, will one day meet the fate they so easily deny to others.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 01:42 PM

There is nothing holding back the salvation of any person, other than that person's own heart.
There is nothing left to happen first
There is no other thing that must happen.

The day of salvation is here.

Free Will is a great gift from God.
It allows God to call out to us and for us to hear and respond to him.
But it also takes away any excuse too.

The Pheonix

05-04-2014, 01:45 PM

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:09 PM

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

In this story Jesus once again points out the moot point that keeping the Law is as far as changing a person's heart.
You can keep the Law all you want, and still be totally unready and unwilling to follow Jesus when He comes to you and says, "Follow me"

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:13 PM

There is nothing holding back the salvation of any person, other than that person's own heart.
There is nothing left to happen first
There is no other thing that must happen. . .

Indeed, well said.
John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Could you give me your take on Alan's statement above and tie it in with the above verses in John 6?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:18 PM

You can keep the Law all you want, and still be totally unready and unwilling to follow Jesus when He comes to you and says, "Follow me"
Since you believe that a person can keep ALL of the commandments ALL of the time and lead a perfect life just like Jesus--could you tell me what would be the basis for sending that person to Hell?

Romans 2: 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Can you tell me what Paul was trying to convey with this verse in Romans 2 (especially given the fact that YOU believe that a person is capable of keeping the Law) ?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:19 PM

Is the universe still running Billy?

if it is, and if the Bible is correct in that this very universe is always showing us the Lord's nature....then there is nothing left to wait for!

We dont have to think, "I have to wait for God to do something before I can be saved"

For today is the day of salvation!
there in no step that must happen yet...nothing that needs to come first....
The time is NOW!

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:20 PM

For humans, hell is a free will, voluntary choice, and in exercising their free will humans choose to ignore the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ as their ONLY salvation. Therefore humans VOLUNTEER to go to hell. It is as simple as that.

Since you mention "free will" wouldn't that also include having the "free will" to be able to keep all of the commandments?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:23 PM

We dont have to think, "I have to wait for God to do something before I can be saved"

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Alan do you see any conflict with your position and what Christ has said in John 6?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:31 PM

Can you tell me what Paul was trying to convey with this verse in Romans 2 ?

yes, in this whole greater context of what we are reading Paul teach on, he is telling the Jews (who had the law) and the non-Jews (who did not have the law) that hearing is fine, but its not just knowing "about" something that counts.

It's like if I get caught speeding and the cop asks, "Did you know the speed limit is 75 in this State?".....knowing the speed limit is not the same as following it...LOL

Its like when a non-Jew that has no law, and is a Law unto themselves, still does things he believes in his heart should not be done.
Even though he is not under the Jewish Law he still condemns himself by not following a Law that he trusts.

Now in the thing is, as a Christian I can live by the Law, or by Grace though Faith.
if I attempt to live by the Law thats great, however you risk a lot by attempting this because the person that wants to try to live by the Law will also be judged by the law...and in this case if you ever screw up you are sunk and without any means to find forgivness.
breaking the Law, even the smallest of the Law brings death.

try it if you want, but thats not my advice.

my advice?.....live by Grace though Faith.
There is no heavy lifting,,the yoke of Christ is light.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:33 PM

Therefore humans VOLUNTEER to go to hell. It is as simple as that.

Do you think that the mormons who are following after strange gods (yet in their mind believe that they are doing all of the right things) will VOLUNTEER to go to Hell when they face God on judgement day?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:35 PM

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Alan do you see any conflict with your position and what Christ has said in John 6?NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST!!!!

is the universe still up and running?....if it is, guess what?...the nature of God is still being preached to the human race via the things that God made that reflect himself and this means that no matter where you are on the earth, no matter what church you grew up in, no matter what things were taught to you, thats all a moot point, for god is busy within the things that He made calling out to you.

and the word "drawing" gets a lot of people screwed up....
I like to use the word "attract"

Luther defined the term to be a lot like when we try to attract a member of the opposite sex in being interested in each other.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:38 PM

yes, in this whole greater context of what we are reading Paul teach on, he is telling the Jews (who had the law) and the non-Jews (who did not have the law) that hearing is fine, but its not just knowing "about" something that counts.

It's like if I get caught speeding and the cop asks, "Did you know the speed limit is 75 in this State?".....knowing the speed limit is not the same as following it...LOL

Its like when a non-Jew that has no law, and is a Law unto themselves, still does things he believes in his heart should not be done.
Even though he is not under the Jewish Law he still condemns himself by not following a Law that he trusts.

Now in the thing is, as a Christian I can live by the Law, or by Grace though Faith.
if I attempt to live by the Law thats great, however you risk a lot by attempting this because the person that wants to try to live by the Law will also be judged by the law...and in this case if you ever screw up you are sunk and without any means to find forgivness.
breaking the Law, even the smallest of the Law brings death.

try it if you want, but thats not my advice.

my advice?.....live by Grace though Faith.
There is no heavy lifting,,the yoke of Christ is light.
Romans 2: 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

And what about the part when Paul said " but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. ". IF a person were to obey the Law wouldn't that person be declared righteous?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:40 PM

NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST!!!!

is the universe still up and running?....if it is, guess what?...the nature of God is still being preached to the human race via the things that God made that reflect himself and this means that no matter where you are on the earth, no matter what church you grew up in, no matter what things were taught to you, thats all a moot point, for god is busy within the things that He made calling out to you.
So you don't believe Jesus when he said "“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". Rather you believe that you can come to Christ prior to being drawn by the Father. Right?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:40 PM

The big thing that is at the heart of how God is attracting us to the cross, is the concept of finding salvation and forgiveness from sin.

This is the thing that the Lost are looking for, and this is the thing that attracts them to the cross....

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 02:42 PM

So you don't believe Jesus when he said "“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". Rather you believe that you can come to Christ prior to being drawn by the Father. Right?
I believe what I have written, and I have written as much on this topic as to fill a book with my many words...

....perhaps you might consider quoting me rather than attempting to use a straw-man argument in place of my views?

Billyray

05-04-2014, 02:52 PM

I believe what I have written, and I have written as much on this topic as to fill a book with my many words...

....perhaps you might consider quoting me rather than attempting to use a straw-man argument in place of my views?
Romans 9
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I have comp***ion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
[B]17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Alan what message was Paul trying to convey with respect to the Pharoh in Romans 9:17-18?

What was the "very purpose" that God was speaking about in verse 17?

Libby

05-04-2014, 03:13 PM

Calvinism teaches that man has choices and that he can either choose to obey the commandments or break them. He has the choice to either accept Christ or reject HIM. Yet you object and say that he does not have a real choice.

Now let's compare the objection that you raised against Calvinism and see if you are guilty of the same exact thing.

You believe that man has choices and that he can either choose to obey the commandments or break them. Yet man is incapable of keeping the commandments. Does he have a real choice to keep ALL of the commandments?

I just wanted to go back to this and tell you, Billy, that I do see the conflict, I have set up, by giving you a "no" answer to the question of whether or not we can obey all of the commandments. This is becoming a little confusing for me.

I think Alan has given you some good answers (and probably Walter Martin, as well), but...it has always been my understanding (and feeling) that we didn't have the ability to ever become perfectly obedient, as Christ was....because of our corrupted nature. And, yet, I do agree with Alan, that God would not tell us to do something, if he knew it was impossible for us...would He? Why would He do that?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:20 PM

Pharaoh had free will too!

Pharaoh was always free to do whatever he wanted.
God's plans are not so easy to stump however...LOL

So the story of Pharaoh is a story where we see what I have been talking about the whole time.
Man has Free Will, and God is sovereign.

God is Sovereign, in this verse
Exodus 4:21

21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

and Pharaoh, being a normal human, always had Free Will the whole time too!
as seen in this verse:
Exodus 8:15

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and adid not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

Exodus 8:32

32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go

Exodus 9:34

34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

So when we read that other writers in the Bible have made use of the person of Pharaoh in their teachings, we always have to remember to read things in the correct context , and that there are some things very clear in the bible and one of these very clear things we see in the bible is the idea that God is sovereign and this is the reason we also see in the text that Pharaoh was a man with Free Will.

So God is able to use men for his will, while never once needed to stoop to stripping a person of their Free Will.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:32 PM

that God would not tell us to do something, if he knew it was impossible for us.......

God gave the Jews Laws.
One day a Jew who had always been keeping these same Laws came to Jesus and asked "What else do I lack?"

In his answer Jesus shows that keeping the Law for your whole life does not change your heart....It does not make you ready and willing for when Christ comes to you and says, "Follow me"

(On a side note, a lot of people get all bent out of shape over the word "perfect"....In the Bible it tells us in different places that God asks us to be "perfect"
In the story that I talk about of a conversation between a rich ruler and Jesus, the Lord talks about the man seeking to be "perfect".

many people think this means, you never make a mistake....or that you never sin.
I dont understand this word to be talking about such things....Rather I see it in the following manner:

You have a new baby, and take the baby home from the hospital and get it all ready for when the new Grandmother comes over to see the baby for the first time.

You get a new crib for the baby to be in when family get there.
You get brand new blankets to cover the baby.
You get brand new baby diapers,
You get brand new and great looking baby clothes.
You get a little warm cap for the baby to cover the little head.
You have everything in place when the grandmother arrives.

Then......Grandmother picks the baby off the new crib .
The new blankets are pulled aside.
The new baby clothes are removed, the baby is stripped down to the bare skin, and at that point the grand mother counts all the little fingers and toes the way grand mothers have been doing for thousands of years.

Finally satisfied, the grandmother returns the baby back to the mother, as she pronounces the baby, "perfect"

that is the meaning of the term to me.....to be "complete"...lacking nothing.....to be whole and well made.)

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:38 PM

Pharaoh had free will too!

Pharaoh was always free to do whatever he wanted.
God's plans are not so easy to stump however...LOL

How can the guy have free will if the bible is so clear about calling the guy a tool in the hands of the Lord?

The answer is that God did not need to first strip the Free Will of any person just to be able to work in their lives what is His will.

if God needed to do that to us we would be under the control of a false god...and not the true Sovereign God of the Bible.

God never took away anyone's free will....He don't have to.

Libby

05-04-2014, 03:40 PM

God gave the Jews Laws.
One day a Jew who had always been keeping these same Laws came to Jesus and asked "What else do I lack?"

In his answer Jesus shows that keeping the Law for your whole life does not change your heart....It does not make you ready and willing for when Christ comes to you and says, "Follow me"

(On a side note, a lot of people get all bent out of shape over the word "perfect"....In the Bible it tells us in different places that God asks us to be "perfect"
In the story that I talk about of a conversation between a rich ruler and Jesus, the Lord talks about the man seeking to be "perfect".

many people think this means, you never make a mistake....or that you never sin.
I dont understand this word to be talking about such things....Rather I see it in the following manner:

You have a new baby, and take the baby home from the hospital and get it all ready for when the new Grandmother comes over to see the baby for the first time.

You get a new crib for the baby to be in when family get there.
You get brand new blankets to cover the baby.
You get brand new baby diapers,
You get brand new and great looking baby clothes.
You get a little warm cap for the baby to cover the little head.
You have everything in place when the grandmother arrives.

Then......Grandmother picks the baby off the new crib .
The new blankets are pulled aside.
The new baby clothes are removed, the baby is stripped down to the bare skin, and at that point the grand mother counts all the little fingers and toes the way grand mothers have been doing for thousands of years.

Finally satisfied, the grandmother returns the baby back to the mother, as she pronounces the baby, "perfect"

that is the meaning of the term to me.....to be "complete"...lacking nothing.....to be whole and well made.)

Thanks, Alan. I like that definition of "perfect".

I'll have to get back to this later. Hubby and I are off to a concert.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 03:54 PM

Thanks, Alan. I like that definition of "perfect".

I'll have to get back to this later. Hubby and I are off to a concert.you two do get out more than we seem to around here....:)

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:35 PM

I just wanted to go back to this and tell you, Billy, that I do see the conflict, I have set up, by giving you a "no" answer to the question of whether or not we can obey all of the commandments. This is becoming a little confusing for me.

Thanks for being forthright in your answer. The point that I was trying to make is that from a human perspective both the Arminian and the Calvinist position may seem unfair. Since we have gone over your objection with Calvinism on this topic dozens of time, permit me the opportunity to share my view again against the Arminian position--especially since there have been a couple of posters that may have missed our earlier discussion. I think that the objection that one may raise is easy to see but most don't think it through. And here is the issue using the same argument that Arminians make against Calvinists. If God gives man commandments that man is incapable of keeping how is it fair for God to hold man responsible for something that he is incapable of doing i.e. keeping all of the commandments.

Billyray

05-04-2014, 04:41 PM

Pharaoh had free will too!

Pharaoh was always free to do whatever he wanted.
God's plans are not so easy to stump however...LOL
We all make choices including Pharaoh. BTW since you said that God draws ALL men to Christ would you characterize the following verses in Romans 9 as a good example of how God draws man to Christ?

Romans 9
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I have comp***ion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
[B]17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Alan will you be kind enough to address the following questions that I gave you in a prior post. I don't think I saw you address them yet.

Alan what message do you think Paul was trying to convey with respect to the Pharoh in Romans 9:17-18?

What was the "very purpose" that God was speaking about in verse 17?

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:12 PM

Alan what message do you think Paul was trying to convey with respect to the Pharaoh in Romans 9:17-18?

I have already talked a great deal on this section of Paul's writings.
Paul was presenting an argument that might be something the Jews would say when they started to realize what was going on with God bringing in non-Jews into a covenant relationship with Him.

The Jews had a lot of advantages and had a special relationship with God....
But in the Cross this relationship was now given to the greater world of non-Jews too.

The argument Paul was listing was from the point of view of a Jew, who understands that while they had rejected the Christ, their rejection was actually part of God's plan.

So a Jew might say, "Why now blame us?...We were only doing what God had planned from the beginning, and who can stand against God's plan?"

This argument is a moot point as Paul points out, as people like Pharaoh always had Free Will, and so they are still fully guilty of turning against God....So it doesn't matter a hoot that the rejection of the jews was within God's plan,,,they still were always with Free Will.

So Pharaoh was also working within the plan of God the whole time.

This is how man's Free Will works under the lord's Soverignty

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:18 PM

What was the "very purpose" that God was speaking about in verse 17?

very purpose = to be remembered in the p***over meal.
a meal that would later be used by our Lord to teach us about his own death for our sins.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:23 PM

BTW since you said that God draws ALL men to Christ would you characterize the following verses in Romans 9 as a good example of how God draws man to Christ?

?ok

"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

This part is talking about how God now has kicked open the doors and is now inviting all to the table.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 05:25 PM

about the whole part of Paul's teachings in this section are all about how God is calling all people now to Christ.

This had to shock a lot of Jewish Christians,,,,

The Pheonix

05-04-2014, 07:23 PM

\and my and the Bible's answer is:
Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing"

keeping laws...following rules...doing things....finishing works, , or any stuff we do with our arms and legs dont actually do squat as far as getting a person's heart right with God.....

Jesus points this out to the Jewish teachers who made such a big deal about keeping the Law.
Yet, Jesus was very observant to the Law, and all every way an observant Jew. Not to mention how Jesus loved him for also keeping the Law.

alanmolstad

05-04-2014, 07:50 PM

yes....Jesus does tell the guy directly that if you want to live, just keep the Commandments....and he even lists the Commandments he wanted the man to keep.
But in the end, the guy was still lacking something that made all lifetime spent in the law keeping a moot point.

You cant follow Christ except by faith.....that is why at Romans 9:32 it says of the Jews who kept the Law,
" 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

and you are right, the text does say that after the guy declared that he had kept the Jewish Laws all his life that Jesus looked at the man and his statement of keeping the Law with love, and Jesus even goes so far as to offer the guy the same position that was given to Peter, John and the rest of the 12.

It is sad for the guy ....He was offered a great thing and for the sake of a few bucks walked away from it.

and lets face it...He had gone there to talk to Jesus to find that final justification for all that lifetime he had spent in serious study of the Law and keeping it , and to know it was worth it.

He wanted it confirmed that he had eternal life via the law.

Yet in the end he walks away dejected having turned down a spot within the inner core of the followers of Jesus and now knowing that his keeping the Law had still left him, "lacking"

James Banta

05-04-2014, 08:17 PM

once again.....they are not my words, but are Walter Martin's...

Strange I thought they were Biblical.. IHS jim

John T

05-04-2014, 08:46 PM

Do you think that the mormons who are following after strange gods (yet in their mind believe that they are doing all of the right things) will VOLUNTEER to go to Hell when they face God on judgement day?

Look at what Scripture says. All I can do is repeat it:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Chapter 2

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

EVERY verse ripped from its context is always a context. Such is the case when anyone focuses on Romans 2:13, and ignores its context:

ROMANS 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Notice that EVERYONE will be judged by the Law. There are no exceptions to this fact.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

NOTICE that this is an entire parenthetical statement, and it is one thought. It is addressing the thought expressed above, which is EVERYONE shall be judged according to what the Law says.
THEREFORE, the ripping from its context Romans 2:13 PROVES THAT AS AN AXIOM, that whenever a verse is ripped from its context, it is therefore a pretext

Now the thought of Paul continues in the same manner as before:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Do not fall for that sort of Mormon dung, whereby they pull things out of context in order to make a scripturaly unsound heresy seem "legitimate".

Whenever anyone says, that sort of stuff, IMHO it is not a wrong to say to the cultist, "Because you rip a verse out of its context, you are attempting to discredit Paul, twist Scripture, and making up (or perhaps copying from some liar) a sulfurous lie". I do not think that in this sort of a case, it is wrong to call a spade a spade, and tell the cultist to stop shoveling stuff from the barn door.

James Banta

05-04-2014, 09:33 PM

[Libby;156120]Yes, I know the Father draws us, but same question I am asking Billy. Does he draw everyone or just a select few? Does God choose who will be saved or does He draw everyone and chooses those whom He knows will choose Him (of their own free will)?

God draws all men to Jesus. Most ignore His call and are not chosen to be His.. Only those that respond to that call receive His grace.. Those that respond are known by God from the beginning.. So it follows that those that refuse God's call are also known to Him. We are there predestined to either Life or ****ation..

Fair enough...and I have had a LOT of questions and "bumps" along my spiritual path...but, truly, I have never been "faithless". My faith has always been in Jesus Christ.

Then He has been your Mighty God, your Everlasting Father The one true and living God, the creator of all things, all along? Even though you doubted His power to maintain the truth of His word especially in the His word found in the OT. Even in the genealogies found there. Your insistence that you have been faithful to God (Jesus) is being shouted down by your earlier statements. So what are the doctrines of the real Libby?

I don't "pander", James. My comments are sincere and from the heart. I didn't say anything about "LDS", in general. I don't judge whole groups of people. That's never a good idea. As I said, before, there are all kinds, in every religion, and I know for a fact that there are LDS who have a real relationship with Jesus Christ. I know that because I was one of them...and I've known many other ex-Mormons (including your own wife) who have said the same thing.

To refuse to tell the LDS the truth, you pander.. To refuse to stand in agreement with those of us that do speak the truth to them, you pander. You make it hard to know if you are not denying the truth that we face the lies Smith told the LDS about who God is, how salvation comes to mankind, and what mankind's base nature is.. Jesus showed us that standing up against error is correct.. He told us to be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees. You must know that He was speaking of their works and their doctrines..

You know that I have shown just how uncaring the LDS are in their treatment of the widowed and the orphan. That is the main theme of James 2 that they are so quick to quote. If their at***ude has come from one authority I could have pointed to him as ungodly but it was across the whole church.. From the plains of North Dakota to the center of mormonism, the Wards of Utah.. They help no one that isn't willing to follow their rules and offer their own efforts to any "charity" they might give.. That is loving one another? NO!! there is no grace in their "AID" to the poor among them..

When it comes to "doctrine", I agree. When it comes to judging individuals, like the people on this board, I absolutely disagree that you have that right or duty. That belongs to God alone.

I condemn mormonism not the people that have been lead into it by lies, and ignorance of it's past.. It is important to know and tell those being tricked by it that yet Bible DEMANDS that the Lord our God is one LORD.. That He has been God from everlasting to everlasting. That there was never any God other than Him, and there will never be one.. That God is Spirit, that a spirit does not have flesh and bone. That Jesus is the physical image of the invisible God.. That the Father made Jesus to be sin in our place that we can become the righteousness of God in Him..

But what is their doctrine on these Biblical points? That there are three Gods, That He BECAME a God though obedience to Laws and ordinances. That He has a God over Him as He is a God over us.. That He has body as tangible as man's. That Jesus erased the curse of Adam but we must do as they believe he had done and earn our place in the Kingdom through our own obedience to Law and ordinances.

Have The LDS been able to resist evil? They all agree with us that all have sinned. Not one of them has claimed that they have yet perfected themselves. Again agreeing with me that there is a commandment given by Jesus to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Have any of them repented for breaking that commandment? Remember they teach that if they don't forsake a sin they repent of they have not truly repented.. And still they admit to nearly daily sin.. They break that commandment of Jesus again and again..

Is there any doubt that mormonism is denying the One true and living God? Is that not evil? That mormonism creating it's own God of flesh and bone mormonism as not set up an idol? If we are going to tell the LDS the truth they will see that truth as lies and an attack on their religion.. It is our Duty to call all to repentance.. That can hurt and sound often like a personal attack.. How it is received in not my responsibility but I am commanded to make that call.. If you believe God, that is also your call. If you don't want to because you "don't want to defend anyone" then take me up in my offer and leave.. Your pandering is hindering the message of God.. IHS jim

Libby

05-04-2014, 10:09 PM

Libby

05-04-2014, 11:09 PM

Thanks for being forthright in your answer. The point that I was trying to make is that from a human perspective both the Arminian and the Calvinist position may seem unfair. Since we have gone over your objection with Calvinism on this topic dozens of time, permit me the opportunity to share my view again against the Arminian position--especially since there have been a couple of posters that may have missed our earlier discussion. I think that the objection that one may raise is easy to see but most don't think it through. And here is the issue using the same argument that Arminians make against Calvinists. If God gives man commandments that man is incapable of keeping how is it fair for God to hold man responsible for something that he is incapable of doing i.e. keeping all of the commandments.

Thanks, Billy. I do want to get back to this, but want to think about it and read a little, maybe.

alanmolstad

05-05-2014, 04:07 AM

God draws all men to Jesus. ........

James, I had to smile when I noticed that when I posted this same idea , our Mr Billy got all upset and suggested that such an idea was so off the wall that I needed to go back and read the bible some more.

alanmolstad

05-05-2014, 04:38 AM

then take me up in my offer.......
James unless someone has broken one of the rules of this forum, it is not......not anyone's *** to try to get people to stop posting on this site.

If we are found standing at the door, let it be because we are holding the door open to all guests and welcoming them in to join us, regardless of their religion.

,

James Banta

05-05-2014, 08:30 AM

Thank you for answering my question, at the beginning of this long post, James.

I've never doubted God, only man and his interpretations, at times.

I am not going anywhere, so please stop telling me to leave.

I'll also "witness" in the way that God guides me. I'm not really here for the Mormons, at this time. There is something else that has nothing to do with them or with you. You'll just have to trust God, that there is a purpose for my being here.

Don't leave, just stop your attacks on the Christians.. Stop your pandering of the LDS.. You KNOW that these people have been deceived into believing that there is more than one God.. That salvation is as much through their works as it is by the grace of God through Faith in Jesus.. Hold that line and post only the truth of God and never mind if we can lose our salvation or who God calls to Jesus and post the truth of God and His works for our salvation. Surely You can't see that discussing Jesus and His grace is ANTI anything.. That doesn't even mean you have to show contrast to mormonism.. As you teach the truth they will be angered enough by it to say that you lie.. Never mind trying to find commonality. There is no common ground between God and Baal.. IHS jim

James Banta

05-05-2014, 08:36 AM

James unless someone has broken one of the rules of this forum, it is not......not anyone's *** to try to get people to stop posting on this site.

If we are found standing at the door, let it be because we are holding the door open to all guests and welcoming them in to join us, regardless of their religion.

,

As I have said before this is a personal request.. I am allowed to make personal requests.. She and even you are very welcome here by me and the rules of the forum if you will address the subject of this channel. That is mormonism and excludes a discussion of Calvinism.. There are better channels here to carry on those discussions.. Please feel free to address these issues on the Hermeneutics, or Christianity - Protestantism channels. The discussion of Calvinism has no place on the Mormonism channel.. You know that Alan.. IHS jim

Libby

05-05-2014, 09:53 AM

James, I had to smile when I noticed that when I posted this same idea , our Mr Billy got all upset and suggested that such an idea was so off the wall that I needed to go back and read the bible some more.

Yes, I told James along time ago that we (he and I) were actually agreeing, but he was so busy judging me that he didn't even notice. :)

Libby

05-05-2014, 09:59 AM

Don't leave, just stop your attacks on the Christians.. Stop your pandering of the LDS.

I'm not doing either of these things, but you are, when you unjustly accuse me and continue to ask me to leave. If you continue your personal attacks, I will have to put you back on ignore. If you want to discuss, civilly, then, we can do that.

In the meantime, you go ahead and discuss with the LDS, whatever you think you need to (I have never interfered in that), and I will continue to discuss with Billy and others, the things that I have a need to discuss, right now.

James Banta

05-05-2014, 11:13 AM

I'm not doing either of these things, but you are, when you unjustly accuse me and continue to ask me to leave. If you continue your personal attacks, I will have to put you back on ignore. If you want to discuss, civilly, then, we can do that.

In the meantime, you go ahead and discuss with the LDS, whatever you think you need to (I have never interfered in that), and I will continue to discuss with Billy and others, the things that I have a need to discuss, right now.

There is nothing to say to Libby if she puts me on ignore.. Thats ok I am done with her too.. IHS jim

Libby

05-05-2014, 12:14 PM

There is nothing to say to Libby if she puts me on ignore.. Thats ok I am done with her too.. IHS jim

I haven't put you on ignore. I gave you a choice. If it's your choice to ignore me, then I hope you actually keep your word, instead of continue attacking me.

Billyray

05-05-2014, 01:11 PM

Look at what Scripture says. All I can do is repeat it:

You seem to want to pick a fight with me but I have yet to figure out where you feel that we disagree on our position with the possible exception of the basis for election. Perhaps you haven't read the discussion from the beginning. Why don't you clearly list where you think we disagree and what I have written that you disagree with and perhaps we can sort this out.

The Pheonix

05-05-2014, 01:48 PM

RealFakeHair

05-05-2014, 01:52 PM

Yes, I told James along time ago that we (he and I) were actually agreeing, but he was so busy judging me that he didn't even notice. :)

I judge you guilty, and your fine is $1.68. Paid to the order of me.

Libby

05-05-2014, 01:56 PM

I judge you guilty, and your fine is $1.68. Paid to the order of me.

Haha! :) That's about what our "personal" judgments of one another are worth.

Libby

05-05-2014, 02:08 PM

Someone is asking that you leave, the board or the Church; which? :(

Probably both. ;-)

Why would they do this? In my experience this happens when they or anyone feels like they are losing the fight. I have met many who do this, because they are not skilled at debate. In my experience when it comes to faith based debate, it is usually those who take a very hard line, like the KJV Only crowd, Calvinists, etc.

Yeah, maybe, who knows? I'm no great debater, so I doubt it's that.

Billyray

05-05-2014, 02:58 PM

Whenever anyone says, that sort of stuff, IMHO it is not a wrong to say to the cultist, "Because you rip a verse out of its context, you are attempting to discredit Paul, twist Scripture, and making up (or perhaps copying from some liar) a sulfurous lie". I do not think that in this sort of a case, it is wrong to call a spade a spade, and tell the cultist to stop shoveling stuff from the barn door.
Roman2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.*

John you seem to be pretty hot under the collar about this and I am not really sure why because my bet is that for the most part we have the same beliefs. I don't think you haven't bothered to read the entire discussion and find out why we were discussing what we have been discussing.

We ALL sin and fall short and not a single person will be saved by obeying the law because they can't do it--which is what Paul was proving to us in the first 3 chapters of Romans. But I think you took issue when I brought up Romans 2:19 and we may be in disagreement on this so lets talk about it. Paul said "but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." IF a person were able to keep the law perfectly (which we know is impossible) then that person would be justified by the law. Paul wasn't trying to teach that a person is justified by the law but rather that since we all sin a person can't possibly be justified by the law because that would require perfect obedience--which nobody has. Now what we were discussing is that IF a person obeyed the law perfectly (like what Alan and LDS believe is possible) then they certainly would be justified by their perfect obedience --if a person doesn't sin then there is no basis to charge that person. What issue seems to bother you with what I have said?

Libby

05-05-2014, 03:40 PM

From John T's post:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

I've been thinking about this and the whole free will discussion. I have to agree that God did give his people the law, knowing that they could not fulfill it....but, it seems like, the Law was given as God's basis for judgment, and also as a stumbling block, so that people would turn to him for guidance.

But, then, when he sent Jesus Christ, I think He did so knowing that acceptance of Christ was something we could do. We couldn't obey the law perfectly, but we did have ability to take the hand of Jesus, as it was extended, and allow him to be our righteousness.

Many verses seem to indicate that we do have that ability and that it is expected of us.

Billyray

05-05-2014, 03:59 PM

I've been thinking about this and the whole free will discussion. I have to agree that God did give his people the law, knowing that they could not fulfill it....but, it seems like, the Law was given as God's basis for judgment, and also as a stumbling block, so that people would turn to him for guidance.

But, then, when he sent Jesus Christ, I think He did so knowing that acceptance of Christ was something we could do. We couldn't obey the law perfectly, but we did have ability to take the hand of Jesus, as it was extended, and allow him to be our righteousness.

We talked about this early on about this--perhaps John will go back and read it. In order for there to be a punishment there needs to be a law broken. Every one of us have been given some laws even if it just is a basic moral comp***. The more laws given--such as the Mosaic Law--the more laws that are broken because we are unable to keep the law. The Mosaic law--with more laws--just made it more obvious to those who were under it that they couldn't keep the law no matter how hard they tried. The more a person realizes that they can't keep God's laws the more they realize that they need a Savior to save them from their sins. Unfortunately lds believe that it is possible to live a perfect life (and Alan believes that it is possible as well) but it is obvious from the NT--particularly Romans 1-3--that we are ALL sinners and fall short.

James Banta

05-05-2014, 04:05 PM

From John T's post:

I've been thinking about this and the whole free will discussion. I have to agree that God did give his people the law, knowing that they could not fulfill it....but, it seems like, the Law was given as God's basis for judgment, and also as a stumbling block, so that people would turn to him for guidance.

But, then, when he sent Jesus Christ, I think He did so knowing that acceptance of Christ was something we could do. We couldn't obey the law perfectly, but we did have ability to take the hand of Jesus, as it was extended, and allow him to be our righteousness.

Many verses seem to indicate that we do have that ability and that it is expected of us.

Does that go for the Apostles.. Did they have less free than the rest of us? They were offered the ability to choose Jesus, He just chose them? How do believers differ from the disciples that He chose to walk with Him? Are we not to walk with Him all our days? And yet He tells His disciples and us:

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

I say we were chosen because in His complete knowledge of all thing He knew that we would accept Him. Therefore the fact that He did the choosing, but we came to Him of our own free will.. Don't condemn God because He is all knowing, worship Him for the love He has shown us through the blood shed on the cross... IHS jim

alanmolstad

05-05-2014, 04:30 PM

Someone is asking that you leave, the board or the Church; which? :( Why would they do this? In my experience this happens when they or anyone feels like they are losing the fight.

Yes, I feel the same about that when I see people start to try to chase away people that disagree with them.
Did not really happen here before now...but lately we see this happening more and more, both in the open forum and in Private Messages.
(We are going to have to stop letting that slide I guess...)

We need to remember that everyone are equal here, and should be allowed equal welcome by the rest of us to post on whatever topic they want, and where they want, whenever they see a topic that is of interest to them.

alanmolstad

05-05-2014, 04:34 PM

Therefore the fact that He did the choosing, but we came to Him of our own free will.. ......

This is in 100% agreement with what I have said all along!

Man has Free Will, AND God is Sovereign

Libby

05-05-2014, 04:41 PM

We talked about this early on about this--perhaps John will go back and read it. In order for there to be a punishment there needs to be a law broken. Every one of us have been given some laws even if it just is a basic moral comp***. The more laws given--such as the Mosaic Law--the more laws that are broken because we are unable to keep the law. The Mosaic law--with more laws--just made it more obvious to those who were under it that they couldn't keep the law no matter how hard they tried. The more a person realizes that they can't keep God's laws the more they realize that they need a Savior to save them from their sins. Unfortunately lds believe that it is possible to live a perfect life (and Alan believes that it is possible as well) but it is obvious from the NT--particularly Romans 1-3--that we are ALL sinners and fall short.

Yes, I agree. There are just numerous verses in the Bible that say there is no way man can live the law, perfectly...and, I think, we can ALL testify to that.

Libby

05-05-2014, 04:42 PM

Yes, I feel the same about that when I see people start to try to chase away people that disagree with them.
Did not really happen here before now...but lately we see this happening more and more, both in the open forum and in Private Messages.
(We are going to have to stop letting that slide I guess...)

We need to remember that everyone are equal here, and should be allowed equal welcome by the rest of us to post on whatever topic they want, and where they want, whenever they see a topic that is of interest to them.

Thanks for posting that, Alan. I agree it's a bit out of hand. :(

Libby

05-05-2014, 04:43 PM

Does that go for the Apostles.. Did they have less free than the rest of us? They were offered the ability to choose Jesus, He just chose them? How do believers differ from the disciples that He chose to walk with Him? Are we not to walk with Him all our days? And yet He tells His disciples and us:

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

I say we were chosen because in His complete knowledge of all thing He knew that we would accept Him. Therefore the fact that He did the choosing, but we came to Him of our own free will.. Don't condemn God because He is all knowing, worship Him for the love He has shown us through the blood shed on the cross... IHS jim

That is exactly my thinking, as well....as I have stated NUMEROUS TIMES, just recently.

Libby

05-05-2014, 04:44 PM

I have to mention that Jesus did choose Judas, as well, but Judas ended up denying him.

alanmolstad

05-05-2014, 05:10 PM

As I have said before this is a personal request.. I am allowed to make personal requests.. She and even you are very welcome here by me and the rules of the forum if you will address the subject of this channel. That is mormonism and excludes a discussion of Calvinism.. There are better channels here to carry on those discussions.. Please feel free to address these issues on the Hermeneutics, or Christianity - Protestantism channels. The discussion of Calvinism has no place on the Mormonism channel.. You know that Alan.. IHS jim

I can see you like to boss people around.......its a gift?

Billyray

05-05-2014, 06:19 PM

I have to mention that Jesus did choose Judas, as well, but Judas ended up denying him.
Judas was never a true believer and was chosen for his role in betraying Christ. All you have to do is look in the NT and see what Christ said about him.

Billyray

05-05-2014, 10:29 PM

Billyray

05-05-2014, 10:34 PM

The first is that it is based on a logical fallacy called "begging the question" and the nature of that logical fallacy is that you are asking a question that ***umes a condition-to-fact situation can be true. Therefore to ***ume for any reason that a person that any person can keep the keep the demands of the Law perfectly is an impossibility.

You seem to have an issue with the fact that IF a person kept the law perfectly then that person would be justified. I am not sure why you have raised this objection especially given the fact that Paul mentions it in Romans 2. BTW Paul wan't trying to show that a person could be justified by obeying the law in this section of scripture--rather he was trying to show the opposite that a person could not be justified by obedience to the law because nobody keeps the law. But what he said was true that IF a person could actually keep the law then he would be justified. Anyway if others are interested in this topic Matt Slick goes into it in more depth about this in the following quote below. I also provided a link so that you can view it on his site if you prefer.

Matt Slick
http://carm.org/romans2-11-16

". . .Verse 13 is often used by people (Roman Catholics, Mormons, etc.) to say that we must keep the Law (along with faith in Jesus) to be saved, but this isn’t so. Paul was talking to the Jews (Romans 2:17) about their judging of the Gentiles, and then points them to their own Law (standard of judgment) and hypocrisy and tells them that the doers of the Law are just before God (v. 13).

The standard they wanted to keep was the Law. Paul was telling them that they could be justified before God by keeping it. So, keep the Law. Keep all of it, but if you don’t you’re in trouble. It is the doers of the Law who are justified before God. He tells them that the Gentiles who didn't have the Law according to the knowledge of the Jews were instinctively keeping the Law (v. 14) and will be judged accordingly. How much more the Jews?

Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to keep a perfect standard. They were hypocrites. This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter, in Romans 3:28, that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law--which includes the Law of loving God (Deut. 6:5), and loving your neighbor (Lev. 19:18). No one is able to keep the Law. If you fail even once, then you become guilty of it all.

James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The Jews (and anyone else) can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be perfect. A person can’t fail even once, ever. But since all fail, that is why we have the gospel that tells us Jesus kept the Law perfectly (1 Pet. 2:22), and that we can be justified before God by faith in Him (Romans 4:3, 5; 5:1; John 1:12; 3:16). . ."

Libby

05-05-2014, 11:45 PM

Judas was never a true believer and was chosen for his role in betraying Christ. All you have to do is look in the NT and see what Christ said about him.

There is some controversy about this. Not all Christians would agree with you.

Billyray

05-06-2014, 12:00 AM

There is some controversy about this. Not all Christians would agree with you.
I agree with you that not all Christians would agree with me on this point. However let's look at what we know about this situation. Certainly Christ knew who would be a believer and who would not before HE even picked these guys and Christ choose them--they did not choose HIM. Now if we go to John 6 (lots of good stuff in this chapter) we can get a better picture of Judas through Christ's eyes.

John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

As a side note we also know that Judas was a thief

John 12:4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.[b]” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

Billyray

05-06-2014, 12:30 AM

There is some controversy about this. Not all Christians would agree with you.

Libby here is some more insight about Judas from "Got Questions"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-betray-Jesus.html

"Question: "Why did Judas betray Jesus?"

Answer: While we cannot be absolutely certain why Judas betrayed Jesus, some things are certain. First, although Judas was chosen to be one of the Twelve (John 6:64), all scriptural evidence points to the fact that he never believed Jesus to be God. He even may not have been convinced that Jesus was the Messiah (as Judas understood it). Unlike the other disciples that called Jesus “Lord,” Judas never used this ***le for Jesus and instead called him “Rabbi,” which acknowledged Jesus as nothing more than a teacher. While other disciples at times made great professions of faith and loyalty (John 6:68; 11:16), Judas never did so and appears to have remained silent. This lack of faith in Jesus is the foundation for all other considerations listed below. The same holds true for us. If we fail to recognize Jesus as God incarnate, and therefore the only One who can provide forgiveness for our sins—and the eternal salvation that comes with it—we will be subject to numerous other problems that stem from a wrong view of God.

Second, Judas not only lacked faith in Christ, but he also had little or no personal relationship with Jesus. When the synoptic gospels list the Twelve, they are always listed in the same general order with slight variations (Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:14-16). The general order is believed to indicate the relative closeness of their personal relationship with Jesus. Despite the variations, Peter and the brothers James and John are always listed first, which is consistent with their relationships with Jesus. Judas is always listed last, which may indicate his relative lack of a personal relationship with Christ. Additionally, the only documented dialogue between Jesus and Judas involves Judas being rebuked by Jesus after his greed-motivated remark to Mary (John 12:1-8), Judas’ denial of his betrayal (Matthew 26:25), and the betrayal itself (Luke 22:48). . ."

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 04:57 AM

Judas had free will too!

James Banta

05-06-2014, 08:27 AM

Judas had free will too!

Yes, he did and before he made his betrayal didn't Jesus already know all about it? He knew all about Peter's betrayal too, didn't He? He knows all about yours, and He knows all about mine. IHS jim

James Banta

05-06-2014, 08:38 AM

This is in 100% agreement with what I have said all along!

Man has Free Will, AND God is Sovereign

My brother to me and all the Calvinists I have know the sovereignty of God is the basis of Calvinism.. No man can exercise his free will without God having known about it from even before time was created.. IHS jim

John T

05-06-2014, 11:10 AM

BACKGROUND
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by John T http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156275#post156275)
Whenever anyone says, that sort of stuff, IMHO it is not a wrong to say to the cultist, "Because you rip a verse out of its context, you are attempting to discredit Paul, twist Scripture, and making up (or perhaps copying from some liar) a sulfurous lie". I do not think that in this sort of a case, it is wrong to call a spade a spade, and tell the cultist to stop shoveling stuff from the barn floor.

Roman2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.*

John you seem to be pretty hot under the collar about this and I am not really sure why because my bet is that for the most part we have the same beliefs. I don't think you haven't bothered to read the entire discussion and find out why we were discussing what we have been discussing.

I used the term "cultist" to differentiate between Mormon and Christian.

Then I expounded on the false nature and false methodology of the cultist's theology
Then in a parallel move, I indicated that the way that you came up with the statement about Romans 2:19 follows the methodology of the cultist, ripping a verse out of its context.

I have no doubt about you being a Christian; but I do have great doubt about your hermeneutics regarding that verse, and in great detail, I explained my position.

What some here seem to miss is that Romans 2:1 says that no matter "laws" a person creates for himself to make himself appear "righteous before God" he fails in doing that:
.

ROMANS 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Because I loathe hypotheticals, especially in the Bible area because they give a false legitimacy to the impossible, and improbible, I really come down on them in every forum, especially when they involve the fabrication of a contrary-to-Scripture doctrine. We all know that the Enemy of our soul is the author of such fabrications, and it is his mission to sow confusion in the minds of Christians, coming down hard on a sulfurous lie (but not on the person who is confused) is really an act of kindness and correction. Therefore, I am not upset at you, and I hoped that my explanation could help untangle that in your mind.

What issue seems to bother you with what I have said?

If you re-read what I posted, and understand that I am NOT attacking you personally, I am sure that we can understand each other better. If you disagree with my reasons, please tell me where my disagreements with your interpretation is in error,

Libby

05-06-2014, 12:42 PM

Libby here is some more insight about Judas from "Got Questions"

Thanks, Billy.

What I have read about Judas and why some think that he was a "believer", in the beginning, was that Jesus gave certain powers to his disciples, including Judas (the power to cast out devils and to do healings, etc). It is suggested that Jesus wouldn't have given those powers to an unbeliever. So, they say Judas was a believer who fell away. Jesus knew this, of course, from the beginning, and Judas was used to fulfill a purpose.

Libby

05-06-2014, 01:00 PM

Btw, James, what you said below, is exactly what Alan and I have been saying, all along, so we are in agreement, here...

God draws all men to Jesus. Most ignore His call and are not chosen to be His.. Only those that respond to that call receive His grace.. Those that respond are known by God from the beginning.. So it follows that those that refuse God's call are also known to Him. We are there predestined to either Life or ****ation..

Billyray

05-06-2014, 02:15 PM

I used the term "cultist" to differentiate between Mormon and Christian.

Then I expounded on the false nature and false methodology of the cultist's theology
Then in a parallel move, I indicated that the way that you came up with the statement about Romans 2:19 follows the methodology of the cultist, ripping a verse out of its context.

As I said before if you would have taken the time to see what we were really discussing you probably would not have tried to raise this objection. Since I would be the first person to say that nobody keeps the law and that the point that Paul was trying to make is that since nobody can keep the law the only way that we can be saved is by placing our faith in Christ--which I have said in numerous posts on this thread. However since you brought this up and you said that I ripped Romans 2:19 out of context the burden of proof is on you to back up you claim so can you tell me what exactly that I said that was incorrect? Please be specific.

I have no doubt about you being a Christian; but I do have great doubt about your hermeneutics regarding that verse, and in great detail, I explained my position.

John it is one thing to make a claim but quite another to actually demonstrate it. Thus far your claim is baseless since you have yet to prove it. I welcome actual proof of what you said. You said that this was substantiated in your prior post but this is not the case for example you said that I made a "begging the question" fallacy but I have shown you that this was not the case and that your use of the fallacy "begging the question" was in error.

What some here seem to miss is that Romans 2:1 says that no matter "laws" a person creates for himself to make himself appear "righteous before God" he fails in doing that:

Nobody will be saved by obeying the law because man is incapable of keeping the law. This is crystal clear in Romans 1-3. This is a perfect example of the fact that you are arguing with me on something I believe. Why? because you don't know my position and you don't really know what we are discussing because you haven't read the thread which is obvious based on your objections.

Because I loathe hypotheticals, especially in the Bible area because they give a false legitimacy to the impossible, and improbible, I really come down on them in every forum, especially when they involve the fabrication of a contrary-to-Scripture doctrine. We all know that the Enemy of our soul is the author of such fabrications, and it is his mission to sow confusion in the minds of Christians, coming down hard on a sulfurous lie (but not on the person who is confused) is really an act of kindness and correction. Therefore, I am not upset at you, and I hoped that my explanation could help untangle that in your mind.

You are free to "loathe" anything you want--that is certainly your prerogative. But the fact is that IF a person was able to keep the law perfectly then that person would be justified. Paul clearly states that this it true. Just because nobody keeps the law doesn't negate the truthfulness of that statement.

If you re-read what I posted, and understand that I am NOT attacking you personally, I am sure that we can understand each other better. If you disagree with my reasons, please tell me where my disagreements with your interpretation is in error,

I don't think you are attacking me what I think is that: 1. You don't really have a clue of what I believe--because if you did you wouldn't be arguing with me 2. You didn't read the entire thread to see why we were discussing what we were discussing.

There is an ongoing discussion--among so-called professed Christians--about Calvinism vs Arminianism. Arminians make the claim against Calvinisn. I was simply showing the Arminians that the same holds true for their beliefs but that they didn't really think it through.

Billyray

05-06-2014, 06:46 PM

Btw, James, what you said below, is exactly what Alan and I have been saying, all along, so we are in agreement, here...
What about all those who have never even heard of Jesus. Do you believe that God has drawn them to Jesus?

Billyray

05-06-2014, 06:49 PM

Judas had free will too!
Judas absolutely made choices and he will be responsible for the choices that he made.

We know that Jesus chose the 12 apostles--they didn't choose HIM--so why do you think that Jesus choose Judas?

Libby

05-06-2014, 06:53 PM

What about all those who have never even heard of Jesus. Do you believe that God has drawn them to Jesus?

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32.

I don't know "how", but somehow...

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 06:55 PM

What about all those who have never even heard of Jesus. Do you believe that God has drawn them to Jesus?
Romans 1:20
Is the universe still running?........Then there's your answer.

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 06:56 PM

Btw, James, what you said below, is exactly what Alan and I have been saying, all along, so we are in agreement, here...

We just need one more to join our team and a deck of cards and we are all set.

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 06:57 PM

Yes, he did and before he made his betrayal didn't Jesus already know all about it? He knew all about Peter's betrayal too, didn't He? He knows all about yours, and He knows all about mine. IHS jim

Exactly what i have been saying all along.......from the start.....
Man has Free Will and God is sovereign...

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 06:59 PM

My brother to me and all the Calvinists I have know the sovereignty of God is the basis of Calvinism.. No man can exercise his free will without God having known about it from even before time was created.. IHS jim

And ONLY because our Lord is truly Sovereign and in control, could he have allowed man to have total Free Will as He has....

a lesser god would not have dared.

Libby

05-06-2014, 07:02 PM

Judas absolutely made choices and he will be responsible for the choices that he made.

We know that Jesus chose the 12 apostles--they didn't choose HIM--so why do you think that Jesus choose Judas?

"If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Scripture then goes on to say that "Jesus was troubled in spirit".

I know that he knew, but it still seemed to make him sad, didn't it?

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 07:03 PM

Thanks, Billy.

What I have read about Judas and why some think that he was a "believer", in the beginning, was that Jesus gave certain powers to his disciples, including Judas (the power to cast out devils and to do healings, etc). It is suggested that Jesus wouldn't have given those powers to an unbeliever. So, they say Judas was a believer who fell away. Jesus knew this, of course, from the beginning, and Judas was used to fulfill a purpose.

There is a verse that deals with people like Judas.....
I believe they are said to have "tasted the heavenly gifts"...

The word 'tasted' is pointing out that they never took them in.....
This is hinting that Judas type people are amoung us and look a lot like us, but that they dont actually belong with us ...

They "tasted" what being a Christian was like, but never actually became one...

The context is like when Jesus hung on the cross and the Roman troops lifted up some drugged wine and Jesus tasted it, then spit it out.

Libby

05-06-2014, 07:08 PM

There is a verse that deals with people like Judas.....
I believe they are said to have "tasted the heavenly gifts"...

The word 'tasted' is pointing out that they never took them in.....

Yes, and what about the parable of the sower, where some of the seed falls on shallow ground and springs up (thrives) for awhile, only to die when the sun comes out and scorches it, and they, then, withered. Seems like Judas could have been like that?

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 07:09 PM

Judas absolutely made choices and he will be responsible for the choices that he made.

We know that Jesus chose the 12 apostles--they didn't choose HIM--so why do you think that Jesus choose Judas?

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying....Because in what looks like you are agreeing with me there is a slight hint that you are not...

The hint you dont agree with me is found when I say, "Judas had Free Will" and you come back with "Certainly Judas made choices"
I have to ask for clarification because my cat is able to make choices...heck the fish in my fish tank make choices!
But their decisions are not from a Free Will.
So it very possible to make choices and not have a Free will.

So to be sure.....Let me ask you a question.

Judas had Free Will......Yes or no?

Free Will as defined in whatever reference dictionary you want to use...I don't care....

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 07:14 PM

Scripture then goes on to say that "Jesus was troubled in spirit".

I know that he knew, but it still seemed to make him sad, didn't it?very sad...very upset....all the things that a man would feel....the same things you and I would feel at that time...Because Jesus was fully human.

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 07:23 PM

Yes, and what about the parable of the sower, where some of the seed falls on shallow ground and springs up (thrives) for awhile, only to die when the sun comes out and scorches it, and they, then, withered. Seems like Judas could have been like that?its hard to say....

From the text it seems like that perhaps Judas never believed for a even moment...I notice the way he addressed Jesus was different...like he never for a moment thought Jesus was anything more than a meal ticket...

In the Text we also learn that Judas used to hold onto the money bag, and he would help himself to the money.
this really puts Judas into the place of being a thief from the beginning and never really a believer at all.

However...I would also point out "Who put him in charge of the money?"

Billyray

05-06-2014, 07:32 PM

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?
Judas made the choices that he wanted to make but his choices were limited. So did Judas have free will in the way you are using this term the answer is no. If you want to use the term "free will" to mean that he made choices and those choices were what he desired then the answer would be yes.

Billyray

05-06-2014, 07:35 PM

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?
Could Judas have chosen to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ?

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 08:06 PM

Could Judas have chosen to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ?

none of us are asked to do things we cant do.....

jesus wept because the people 'would not'.....thats different than 'could not'

Billyray

05-06-2014, 08:12 PM

none of us are asked to do things we cant do.....

jesus wept because the people 'would not'.....thats different than 'could not'
I started a new thread on "free will" why don't we continue the discussion there. But why don't we agree on a definition for this word since it means different things to different people. I provided a dictionary definition again. If you want to agree on that then we can proceed.

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 08:16 PM

you better also post the link to your definition ....so we know its correctly posted

alanmolstad

05-06-2014, 08:20 PM

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying....Because in what looks like you are agreeing with me there is a slight hint that you are not...

The hint you dont agree with me is found when I say, "Judas had Free Will" and you come back with "Certainly Judas made choices"
I have to ask for clarification because my cat is able to make choices...heck the fish in my fish tank make choices!
But their decisions are not from a Free Will.
So it very possible to make choices and not have a Free will.

So to be sure.....Let me ask you a question.

Judas had Free Will......Yes or no?

Free Will as defined in whatever reference dictionary you want to use...I don't care....

But real "Free Will"?.....Yes or no?
yes or no?...........

Billyray

05-06-2014, 08:59 PM

yes or no?...........
As I said above I started a new thread on this topic let's continue the discussion there. I have asked you to agree on a definition OR even give me your definition for how you are defining "free will". Let's start with that.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3383-Free-Will

Libby

05-06-2014, 09:42 PM

its hard to say....

From the text it seems like that perhaps Judas never believed for a even moment...I notice the way he addressed Jesus was different...like he never for a moment thought Jesus was anything more than a meal ticket...

In the Text we also learn that Judas used to hold onto the money bag, and he would help himself to the money.
this really puts Judas into the place of being a thief from the beginning and never really a believer at all.

However...I would also point out "Who put him in charge of the money?"

Also, why did Jesus give him the same powers as the other disciples?

alanmolstad

05-07-2014, 02:56 AM

alanmolstad

05-07-2014, 02:57 AM

Also, why did Jesus give him the same powers as the other disciples?

why not?.........

alanmolstad

05-07-2014, 03:01 AM

Billy.....yu must havep overlooked this question?

yes or no?............calvinist hate to even say the term free will....LOL

I knew you could not just say a yes or no........

Libby

05-07-2014, 11:41 AM

why not?.........

The author of the article, I was reading, claimed that Jesus would not bestow such powers on a non-believer.

I don't know, really....I'm just reading various opinions on the subject.

Billyray

05-07-2014, 12:58 PM

............calvinist hate to even say the term free will....LOL

I knew you could not just say a yes or no........
That is certainly not true Alan. But I still have no idea what you mean by this term since you haven't given me a definition of how you are using it. If you agree with the dictionary definition then perhaps we could proceed with out discussion--and since I have started a thread on exactly this topic could you try to maintain the discussion in that threat so that we are not discussing the same thing in separated threads.

Billyray

05-07-2014, 12:59 PM

Billy.....yu must havep overlooked this question?

yes or no?
No I didn't overlook your question. Perhaps you overlooked my answer but here it is again for you.

As I said above I started a new thread on this topic let's continue the discussion there. I have asked you to agree on a definition OR even give me your definition for how you are defining "free will". Let's start with that.

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3383-Free-Will

Billyray

05-07-2014, 01:03 PM

The author of the article, I was reading, claimed that Jesus would not bestow such powers on a non-believer.

I don't know, really....I'm just reading various opinions on the subject.
Libby since you believe that God looks into the future and knows what will happen with 100% certainty and that these events will not nor cannot change. Why do you think Jesus picked Judas?

Libby

05-07-2014, 04:19 PM

Libby since you believe that God looks into the future and knows what will happen with 100% certainty and that these events will not nor cannot change. Why do you think Jesus picked Judas?

I've already said that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill God's purpose.

Not sure why you're asking, though?

Apologette

05-08-2014, 11:17 AM

Yes, and what about the parable of the sower, where some of the seed falls on shallow ground and springs up (thrives) for awhile, only to die when the sun comes out and scorches it, and they, then, withered. Seems like Judas could have been like that?

No, Libby, Judas always had a devil! The elect of God do not wither away or become Hindus or Mormons. They know their Master's voice and follow Him and a STRANGER (NAMED JOE SMITH OR YOGANANDA) THEY WILL NOT FOLLOW. This doesn't take a genius to understand!

Libby

05-08-2014, 11:54 AM

That's your interpretation, Apologette. I would hardly call it the last word on the subject. There are a lot of opinions out there from Christians of varying belief, on that subject.

James Banta

05-08-2014, 12:03 PM

That's your interpretation, Apologette. I would hardly call it the last word on the subject. There are a lot of opinions out there from Christians of varying belief, on that subject.

Explain one other that Christians hold.. NOT those of the cults but those held by Christian.. Just one that differs.. This what I meant about being divisive here Libby.. You just won't stop.. IHS jim

Libby

05-08-2014, 03:16 PM

Explain one other that Christians hold.. NOT those of the cults but those held by Christian.. Just one that differs.. This what I meant about being divisive here Libby.. You just won't stop.. IHS jim

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

James Banta

05-08-2014, 05:02 PM

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

Sorry you can't remember too long.. I asked you to show me any differences in Christianity in the saving doctrines of the faith.. There are none.. To a Christin it's all about Jesus.. It has nothing to do with one thing we do.. Not one thing! Not baptism, nor even the works that the Apostle James calls the Church to accomplish.. because there are no differences in the Church where ever She is all her members will have the same doctrine on salvation.. There is one God, we are saved by His grace through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES. It is a GIFT from God, Not of works so that no man can boast.. The cults do not share that faith. The teach different Gods, different ways to gain their gods salvation.. That is what we see in mormonism.. IHS jim

Billyray

05-08-2014, 05:35 PM

I've already said that Jesus chose Judas to fulfill God's purpose.

Not sure why you're asking, though?

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

James Banta

05-08-2014, 05:38 PM

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save the Jews from Rome.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

05-08-2014, 06:08 PM

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save Jesus from Rome.. IHS jim

oddest sentence in this whole topic.....

Libby

05-08-2014, 06:25 PM

So you don't believe that he was ever a believe I take it?

I didn't say that. I think it's possible that he was a believer that fell away. Like the seed that sprouted for a few days and then withered.

It's also possible that he was never a believer. I really don't know. I think this possibility has more problems, like why would Jesus give him the same healing powers, as his other disciples? Why would Judas have followed him, to begin with, when, in the beginning, there seemed to be nothing for him to gain, by doing so?

Libby

05-08-2014, 06:26 PM

I am a Calvinist.. I don't believe that he had more than a head knowledge that Jesus was going to save Jesus from Rome.. IHS jim

Calvinists don't believe that God is drawing ALL people, as you said you believe.

alanmolstad

05-08-2014, 06:28 PM

should we chip in and get him a book on what the Calvinists believe?

Libby

05-08-2014, 06:36 PM

should we chip in and get him a book on what the Calvinists believe?

;)

...........

Billyray

05-08-2014, 06:49 PM

I didn't say that. I think it's possible that he was a believer that fell away. Like the seed that sprouted for a few days and then withered.

Let's take a look at your example about the seed and see if we can glean any information. But first do you think that the seed that you mentioned is a true believer or would you characterize it as a tare?

alanmolstad

05-08-2014, 06:53 PM

the seed is the same seed....its the ground that is different...

Libby

05-08-2014, 06:57 PM

The Bible calls it a seed. A seed that grows for a time and then withers.

Billyray

05-08-2014, 11:27 PM

The Bible calls it a seed. A seed that grows for a time and then withers.
Luke 8
5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up.
6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”

Of the four examples given how many yielded a crop?

Libby

05-08-2014, 11:49 PM

The seeds that fell on good soil, of course.

The others were still seeds that did grow for awhile.

Billyray

05-08-2014, 11:51 PM

The seeds that fell on good soil, of course.

The others were still seeds the did grow for awhile.
But they didn't produce any crop. They were never saved.

Libby

05-09-2014, 12:10 AM

But they didn't produce any crop. They were never saved.

What is it you consider a "crop"?

Believers don't start out fully ready to be a part of the "crop"...that doesn't mean they are not believers from the very beginning.

Billyray

05-09-2014, 12:35 AM

What is it you consider a "crop"?

Believers don't start out fully ready to be a part of the "crop"...that doesn't mean they are not believers from the very beginning.
I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of this--he had faith and was saved but he did not have any works. But I don't think that was the point of this parable. I think Christ was trying to show that the church will be filled with both true believers (wheat) and unconverted followers. He gives us a couple of ways to spot the difference between the two. First the unconverted fall away because they were never truly converted in the first place and they have no staying power. Second those who have saving faith have works that flow because of their faith. This is the true meaning of the verse in James "faith without works is dead"

Libby

05-09-2014, 12:39 AM

I agree with you on this point. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of this--he had faith and was saved but he did not have any works. But I don't think that was the point of this parable. I think Christ was trying to show that the church will be filled with both true believers (wheat) and unconverted followers. He gives us a couple of ways to spot the difference between the two. First the unconverted fall away because they were never truly converted in the first place and they have no staying power. Second those who have saving faith have works that flow because of their faith. This is the true meaning of the verse in James "faith without works is dead"

Like the "followers" of Jesus, who fell away when they heard "hard sayings"..

Billyray

05-09-2014, 12:46 AM

Like the "followers" of Jesus, who fell away when they heard "hard sayings"..
John 6
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Correct. Not all men are drawn to Christ. Those who are drawn will come to Christ and will be raised. Those who are not are like the seed who follow for a short time but fall away.

Libby

05-09-2014, 01:13 AM

John 6
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Correct. Not all men are drawn to Christ. Those who are drawn will come to Christ and will be raised. Those who are not are like the seed who follow for a short time but fall away.

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".

Billyray

05-09-2014, 01:18 AM

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He is speaking about those who are following Him and says that they don't believe. Why because they weren't drawn by the Father.

alanmolstad

05-09-2014, 04:31 AM

If they follow, even for a short time, they must have been "drawn".people do things for all kinds of reasons.....remember that people always have free will.....

We hear many voices.....the stomach is a voice people listened to when they were fed one day and showed up the next to get fed again...

James Banta

05-09-2014, 08:08 AM

oddest sentence in this whole topic.....

You are right I fixed it.. IHS jim

James Banta

05-09-2014, 08:11 AM

Calvinists don't believe that God is drawing ALL people, as you said you believe.

That depends on what you mean by draw.. I see it and God bringing all those He has a foreknowledge of into the Church.. Is it His perfect will that all come to Jesus? Yes! Can't we leave it at that? As far as losing one's salvation.. I don't buy into that at all.. I do believe that a person can believe like the devils believe and still not gain salvation.. That is how I see the "faith" of Judas. A head faith but not a heart faith.. As I tried to say before a faith that Jesus was going to save Israel from Rome.. IHS jim

James Banta

05-09-2014, 08:53 AM

Have no idea what you are trying to say, here, James. Very garbled. Try again.

We were speaking of interpretations.. I asked you to explain just one difference that CHRISTIAN hold that differ from an other on the saving doctrines taught in the Bible.. That wasn't garbled at all. My mistake was thinking you had the intellectual powers to understand that interpretation was the subject under discussion.. IHS jim

Libby

05-09-2014, 11:50 AM

James Banta

05-09-2014, 12:24 PM

Oh please, James. You don't even know that you are not a Calvinist.

Your post was not understandable, as is true for many of them.

One big difference in denominations is baptism. Some baptize infants (as my church does) and others are very against infant baptism. Some churches believe baptism is necessary. Others do not.

Some churches believe you must receive the Holy Ghost in the form of speaking in tongues (or you are not a true believer).

Those are two good examples, off the top of my head.

Do any Christian churches believe that baptism is a saving ordinance? I said that there are no difference among Christian churches in their doctrines of salvation..

I read all my post through out loud to my wife.. She understands them.. Why you can't? Well I think you know why I believe you can't understand..

The churches you speak of as not holding that a person is saved until they speak in tongues are those that are Modalistsm and in being so are not Christian.. These put something we can do in the place of all that Jesus did to bring salvation to mankind.. We could say that mormonism teaches that we must endure to the end in righteousness and it would have the same effect.. No CHRISTIAN church has any differences to any other on doctrines that bare on salvation . Here is my quote "I asked you to explain just one difference that CHRISTIANS hold that differ from an other on the saving doctrines taught in the Bible.." You can't do that because there aren't any.. In not knowing that you again show that you haven't any idea what you are talking about.. This post of yours shows that you are still thinking like a mormon.. Here is something you could do, ask Alan if Christian churches teach different doctrine that have to do with a persons salvation.. I think he is pandering the LDS almost as much as you do, but I still believe that at least he is a Christian, a child of God.. I am not seeing that from you.. IHS jim