My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Libby]

Again, James, I really don't care what you think.

I am not LDS, nor do I have any plans of ever returning to that church.

You are a blatant teller of untruths and you have no love in you.

[James Banta]

Again, James, I really don't care what you think.

I am not LDS, nor do I have any plans of ever returning to that church.

You are a blatant teller of untruths and you have no love in you.

That deserves the same answer.. You actions are screaming so loud that your denials are drowned out.. IHS jim

[Libby]

My posts bare witness to your untruths.

[James Banta]

My posts bare witness to your untruths.

No one knows that because you don't say I am wrong about what I teach but only the way I do so.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Do any Christian churches believe that baptism is a saving ordinance? ...yes.......

[Billyray]

...yes.......
Can a person be saved without being baptized?

[alanmolstad]

Can a person be saved without being baptized?
in some branches of the church....yes!

[James Banta]

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

In water? Sure after all water can't cleanse you of sin.. That requires the Blood of the Lamb.. Remember:

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

IHS jim

[Libby]

Can a person be saved without being baptized?

My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism. But, some churches believe this is a necessity. Catholics, for sure, and I think there are certain denominations of Baptists who believe this, as well...and perhaps others.

It was a very strong belief, in the early church, that all Christians must be baptized.

I was reading a book on the early church fathers that mentioned that, because baptism was considered a cleansing of sin, often people would wait to be baptised right before they died, so that they would enter the hereafter completely cleansed. I think Augustine or Constantine (?) was one of those, who believed and did this.

Seems to go against the very idea of Christ being our righteousness, doesn't it?

A link on baptism that I found on the internet.

http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/doctrines/baptism/

[Billyray]

My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism.
I agree with you that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved and he wasn't baptized. However if you ask most Christians if they were baptized I bet you will find out that they were. Those who are saved do good works because they are saved NOT to become saved.

[Libby]

Yes, I agree with that, and I do think most Christians would be baptized.

[alanmolstad]

Yes, I agree with that, and I do think most Christians would be baptized.
after Mormonism, was there a push to get you baptized right away?

[John T]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Billyray http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156785#post156785)

Can a person be saved without being baptized?



in some branches of the church....yes!

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.

[James Banta]

[Libby;156801]My personal belief is "yes", you can be saved without baptism. But, some churches believe this is a necessity. Catholics, for sure, and I think there are certain denominations of Baptists who believe this, as well...and perhaps others.

I am a Baptist.. I know of no Christian Baptist church that holds baptism to be a requirement for salvation.. When we (my wife and I) first came out of mormonism we had a problem with baptism after our Pastor first explained that it is a testimony not a requirement for salvation.. That salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.. It took some time in pray and the word but we came to understand that truth..


It was a very strong belief, in the early church, that all Christians must be baptized.

Yes it was done to identified each believer to Jesus.. What kind of Christian doesn't want to be identified with their Lord?

I was reading a book on the early church fathers that mentioned that, because baptism was considered a cleansing of sin, often people would wait to be baptised right before they died, so that they would enter the hereafter completely cleansed. I think Augustine or Constantine (?) was one of those, who believed and did this.

Seems to go against the very idea of Christ being our righteousness, doesn't it? But Augustine was baptized in AD 387 and died in AD 430.. that is 43 years as a baptized Christian.. Seems he was more into salvation by his faith in Jesus than in something he could do to earn it.. Constantine on the other hand was a pagan king that saw Christianity as a way to control the m***es.. Out of his fear of death he submitted to baptism on his death bed. I would question his conversion because if his use of the church to control his empire..


A link on baptism that I found on the internet.

http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/doctrines/baptism/

I will not defend the cults in their practices of baptism. Therefire what the Catholics do is not up for discussion.. The Mininite church hold baptism to be a matter of the heart. The believe that their heart are baptized in the blood of Christ.. Not that some don't practice water baptism but those that do do so without believing it holds saving value.. Sees you haven't studied what Christian churches believe in the doctrine of baptism.. No matter who they conduct the ordinance there is no expectation of it cleansing power over sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.

I know of NO Christian church that teaches salvation through baptism.. Cults like mormonism such thinking is common but not among Christian. Christians hold that our redemption from sin requires blood not mere water. Baptism is always taught because it is a commandment from our Lord.. But how that commandment is followed is a matter of their conscience.. To some it isn't a physical ordinance by or in water. To others it means emerging their hearts and minds into Jesus.. I find any profession of faith in the true and living Jesus, to be a beautiful event.. IHS jim

[Libby]

after Mormonism, was there a push to get you baptized right away?

When I first came out, I attended a mega church, in my area, (Eastside Christian). After a couple of months, and attending their new believers cl***es, I decided to join the church. I had to fill out a card and one of the questions was whether or not I had been baptized, and when. They did want to baptize you, if you had never been baptized. I had been baptized at the age of eight in the First Baptist Church I grew up in, back in Illinois. That was acceptable to them, so I was not rebaptized. They were aware of my LDS background, as well. Two of my granddaughters attended that church with me and both were baptized there. One of them still attends that church. They have a very good youth program (she is 18).

I left that church because I was just feeling very lost in such a big church. It was difficult to make the connections I really needed for growth. I looked on line, specifically, for a small Reformed Church, and found one very close to me. It has only 200 members...and I loved it immediately. People were so friendly and it was so much easier to adjust there. I started Bible cl***es and all kinds of other activities, almost immediately. My husband loves it there, as well.

[alanmolstad]

I left that church because I was just feeling very lost in such a big church. l.
we went to a mega church in Seattle....it too got to be too much for us

[alanmolstad]

You are dodging the question and the issue, Allan, and in the process seemingly getting yourself into a pickle.
It seems that you are saying that you can get saved in church X, but not get saved in church Y.

A clarification would help here.
some christian churches require baptism.....or the good-faith effort to be baptised

[Libby]

we went to a mega church in Seattle....it too got to be too much for us

Yes, there are both pros and cons to mega churches. Since they are big and bringing in a lot of money, they usually have many outreach programs. I just couldn't seem to find my nitch, there.

[Libby]

some christian churches require baptism.....or the good-faith effort to be baptised

Most Christian Churches would like to see everyone baptized. But, I think "most" would disagree that it contributes to salvation. Mostly, it is a sign of obedience and statement of faith in Christ. A symbolic burying and raising up again, in Christ.

[Apologette]

Do you think I really care what you think, at this point?

Your behavior is definitely NOT Christian.



Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. Jim has never compromised God's Word to suit the Mormons. In fact, he has always been stalwart in the faith, never double-minded, and always ready to defend the Gospel. Can you say the same?

[alanmolstad]

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. .....
I believe the term I used was "bully".......

[Apologette]

I believe the term I used was "bully".......

And your pal there said Jim was acting unchristian. And by the way, I've seen you turning into somewhat of a bully lately here. What gives?

[Libby]

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. Jim has never compromised God's Word to suit the Mormons. In fact, he has always been stalwart in the faith, never double-minded, and always ready to defend the Gospel. Can you say the same?

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.

[alanmolstad]

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.

I noticed that too!.....The moment I read the words "never compromised' I thought to myself....."But I thought he was telling these stories about being a Mor....."

????

[Apologette]

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.

In case you didn't grasp the meaning of that statement, I was referring to his posts on forums such as this. On the other hand - what have you done Libby? What is your purpose on this forum other than to cause division as Jim has stated? Why would you want to do that?

[Libby]

In case you didn't grasp the meaning of that statement, I was referring to his posts on forums such as this. On the other hand - what have you done Libby? What is your purpose on this forum other than to cause division as Jim has stated? Why would you want to do that?

I have not been the cause of any division. That has been Jim's doing. I come here to have conversations about Christianity and Mormonism. Nothing more. James' main purpose, as seems to be yours, is to sit here and make judgments about others.

[James Banta]

I have not been the cause of any division. That has been Jim's doing. I come here to have conversations about Christianity and Mormonism. Nothing more. James' main purpose, as seems to be yours, is to sit here and make judgments about others.

No pandering the LDS isn't a cause of division.. In your case it really isn't a sin.. Sins are committed by those that know and understand the Law.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

No pandering the LDS isn't a cause of division.. In your case it really isn't a sin.. Sins are committed by those that know and understand the Law.. IHS jim

It certainly is! Those who fail to speak out against evil, are guilty of endorsing evil!

[James Banta]

It certainly is! Those who fail to speak out against evil, are guilty of endorsing evil!

That is a great Christian definition of pandering and the very thing I believe Libby and now Alan are guilty.. IHS jim

[John T]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Apologette http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156987#post156987)

It certainly is! Those who fail to speak out against evil, are guilty of endorsing evil!


That is a great Christian definition of pandering and the very thing I believe Libby and now Alan are guilty.. IHS jim


“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace”



Alexander Pope, Essay on Man 1734
("mien " means face)

[James Banta]

“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace”



Alexander Pope, Essay on Man 1734
("mien " means face)

Thanks for the poem John.. As to how it fits into what I was trying to teach... I have no idea.. I think you are missing my meaning as much as I am yours.. IHS jim

[John T]

Thanks for the poem John.. As to how it fits into what I was trying to teach... I have no idea.. I think you are missing my meaning as much as I am yours.. IHS jim

In other words, the result of pandering to evil is to eventually accept it as normal.
First we pity those in sin, then we endure their flashing their evil in our face, finally we accept evil as normal.

Think of the ****sexual agenda and what it is doing, and hopes to eventually accomplish.

[John T]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Apologette http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156919#post156919)

Excuse me, but when did you become the authority on Christian behavior. Jim has never compromised God's Word to suit the Mormons. In fact, he has always been stalwart in the faith, never double-minded, and always ready to defend the Gospel. Can you say the same?

I don't think you can say that about James, either, since he was once a Mormon. In your haste to bash me, you are actually insulting every ex-Mormon who has since become a Christian.


By first being a Mormon, then converting, Jim "compromised" the things in Mormonism because he once was a Mormon.

Because he never has compromised his belief in Christianity since his conversion, Apologette is correct in what she says. I do not believe that you can say the same thing.

[James Banta]

In other words, the result of pandering to evil is to eventually accept it as normal.
First we pity those in sin, then we endure their flashing their evil in our face, finally we accept evil as normal.

Think of the ****sexual agenda and what it is doing, and hopes to eventually accomplish.

I have seen that truth being conducted again and again in the world.. Our movies, music, books and now the internet are filled with terrible evil which the world has accepted as normal behavior. I have to agree with you completely.. IHS jim

[Libby]

By first being a Mormon, then converting, Jim "compromised" the things in Mormonism because he once was a Mormon.

Because he never has compromised his belief in Christianity since his conversion, Apologette is correct in what she says. I do not believe that you can say the same thing.

No, I cannot. I'm sure I am a hundred times more sinful than James. I have had to repent and correct my path at least a couple of times, since I left Mormonism.

But, James does "compromise his Christianity" everytime he bears false witness against someone. And, he does this fairly regularly, when he misrepresents the things that people believe, especially when it's intentional, as he did with me. At times, he simply lashes out in order to hurt, because his ego has been wounded. We all do this, sometimes. None of us are perfect in our walk. If we are in the spirit, we are loving and kind, joyful and peacemakers. What I see of Christians on these boards (including myself, often), do not reflect those "fruits of the spirit". I see a lot of harshness, blaming, condemning, judging, meanness and even what appears to be hatred, at times. Definitely not good fruit.

[John T]

No, I cannot. I'm sure I am a hundred times more sinful than James. I have had to repent and correct my path at least a couple of times, since I left Mormonism.

But, James does "compromise his Christianity" everytime he bears false witness against someone. And, he does this fairly regularly, when he misrepresents the things that people believe, especially when it's intentional, as he did with me. At times, he simply lashes out in order to hurt, because his ego has been wounded. We all do this, sometimes. None of us are perfect in our walk. If we are in the spirit, we are loving and kind, joyful and peacemakers. What I see of Christians on these boards (including myself, often), do not reflect those "fruits of the spirit". I see a lot of harshness, blaming, condemning, judging, meanness and even what appears to be hatred, at times. Definitely not good fruit.

I sincerely hope that you do not believe that I have been harsh in that last statement. I used it as a matter of fact, and not as a matter of condemnation.

As for Jim, he is just a cranky old man :p (just kidding, Jim!) Seriously, I believe that he has ailments of one sort or another, and THAT tends to make every one of us short with others. Please give him the the same degree of leniency as you would give yourself, Libby.

What he is doing is attempting to save your soul from perdition, and from the remnants of mormonism, and whatever cult you have dabbled in, to help you see that there is no other truth in the Universe than what we have in Jesus Christ, alone.

[Libby]

I sincerely hope that you do not believe that I have been harsh in that last statement. I used it as a matter of fact, and not as a matter of condemnation.

No, not harsh. As a matter of fact, I was noticing a softening in your soul, as compared to things I had seen you write in the past. I appreciate that.


As for Jim, he is just a cranky old man :p (just kidding, Jim!) Seriously, I believe that he has ailments of one sort or another, and THAT tends to make every one of us short with others. Please give him the the same degree of leniency as you would give yourself, Libby.

Yes, I know. I need to do that. We all have our burdens to bear. I have known I needed to make peace with James for awhile, now. I've even prayed about it. It's just that he is very difficult...and I can be a little cranky, myself, when I perceive that someone is picking at me. (Yeah, yeah, excuses, excuses ;) ).


What he is doing is attempting to save your soul from perdition, and from the remnants of mormonism, and whatever cult you have dabbled in, to help you see that there is no other truth in the Universe than what we have in Jesus Christ, alone.

I've known that for some time. Only Jesus can save me and, that, he has already done. He has not, however, made me "perfect" yet (and will not, while I am in the flesh)...but he has and does convict me, when I am not doing as I should.

As for James, I think he needs to worry more about his own sins and less about mine. I do forgive him, though, and I would ask that he forgive me, as well.

[Apologette]

I have not been the cause of any division. That has been Jim's doing. I come here to have conversations about Christianity and Mormonism. Nothing more. James' main purpose, as seems to be yours, is to sit here and make judgments about others.

You've caused nothing but division here for a long time. And now you and your pal here have been ganging up on Jim. You have a lingering relationship with Mormonism, and then you went into Hinduism and were defending Yogananda. Exactly what makes you think you should even be on an apologetic site? Don't you think it would be better to get your own theology straightened out before you attack Jim (and me) as being too intolerant? Tell you what, Libby, Mormonism is sending millions to hell - something Jim has faithfully been exposing and fighting for years. Meanwhile, he has not been sitting around chanting goony mantras and luring people to the altar of Yogananda, nor has he been sharing the pedophile, Smith's, destructive doctrines or trying to shape them into something more palatable to the Christian. I don't care if you think I'm too hard on you or not - you had the Gospel of Christ and turned your back on it. Don't come here now and try to straighten others out. True regeneration results in faithfulness to Christ. Ask yourself, Libby, how faithful you have been? Sure, all Christians sin, but all do not embrace doctrines of demons and encourage others to do so. What you need to do is demonstrate some repentance, and I've never seen that at all.

[alanmolstad]

never a kind word from her it seems......

[Apologette]

never a kind word from her it seems......

You and Libby have really taken over this site and have ganged up on Jim - you should be ashamed of yourselves. Instead of working together with Jim to address the evil that is Mormonism, you both attacked someone who has been very faithful in preaching Christ to Mormons. Jim doesn't compromise the Gospel. Where were you when Libby was over on the Hindu forum here endorsing Hindusim and trying to mix it with Christianity? You were nowhere. Now she's here and doing the same thing with Mormonism. Go get a dictionary and look up the word SYNCRETISM - because that's what is going on here right in front of your nose. You are simply blinded by your own desire to be Mr. Openness! Mr. Conciliatory. You won't have a "kind word" from me if I'm addressing something that is harmful to the Gospel of Christ. There will never be any peace between the teachings of Christ and the doctrines of demons.

[Libby]

Apologette, James is a big boy and he was the one doing the attacking, not me. You find anywhere else on this site where I have ever "attacked" ANYONE. I will defend myself from people like James and YOU, but I will never, ever be the first "offender". People who know me, even most from this site (including Jill) know that is the truth.

I sincerely tried to work it out with James, but he would have no part of it.

[Apologette]

Apologette, James is a big boy and he was the one doing the attacking, not me. You find anywhere else on this site where I have ever "attacked" ANYONE. I will defend myself from people like James and YOU, but I will never, ever be the first "offender". People who know me, even most from this site (including Jill) know that is the truth.

I sincerely tried to work it out with James, but he would have no part of it.

Of course Jim stood against compromise and the emergent church garbage that one sees here. What else can a believer do? You have always caused division, both her and on CARM. Mormonism is a Satanic cult that will lead people to Hell, and you fail to stand against it, but hope that it can somehow be reconciled with Christianity. It cannot be - for Christ will have nothing to do with Satan! You need to examine your motive for posting, and I don't care who you say "knows" you - I've known you, and I've seen the fruit of what you have posted. A faithful Christian like Jim should not be vilified by you, or by anybody else. I've disagreed with Jim on some things, but we have worked those things out. I will never, however, become an emergent church "Christian" who is willing to compromise Christ for the sake of some idiotic concept of "unity."

[Libby]

You have always caused division, both her and on CARM.

That is simply untrue.

You and Jim are extremely divisive with your constant personal attacks. You've been banned from CARM numerous times and from here.

I have no idea what you're talking about, as far as emergent church goes. I know very little about it. I attend a Christian Reformed Church and have for quite some time.

[Apologette]

That is simply untrue.

You and Jim are extremely divisive with your constant personal attacks. You've been banned from CARM numerous times and from here.

I have no idea what you're talking about, as far as emergent church goes. I know very little about it. I attend a Christian Reformed Church and have for quite some time.
Let's take a little stroll back in time:

Libby, two years ago: "This is the organization/religion/church to which I have, fairly recently, returned. It is a church of all religions, but basically considered Hindu/Christian. It was established in 1920 by Paramahansa Yogananda, the first of many to bring eastern religion and thought to the west.

This was an organization I belonged to (studied under) for about three years, back in the 70's, in the beginning of my spiritual journey. I liked it a lot, at the time, but did not appreciate it to the fullest, as I have come to, in these past few months. I believe some further experiences were required, in order for that to happen. As I learn and practice along this path it brings me closer to God and gives me much joy.

I wanted to provide this thread for anyone who would like to explore this path. If you have any questions, which I can answer, I will be happy to try and answer them.

http://www.yogananda-srf.org/"


Ummm, does that cause division and attempt to lure people into a cult which you've "returned to?"

and to go along with this Hindu orientation (everybody is God teaching):

"Not to nitpick (because that was a good post), but I did want to add that I think we are like God, in some ways. He even said that he made us in his image. I don't think he meant "physical image", but rather in his spiritual image. We have a spirit like his, and intelligence and the ability to know good from evil. Without that ability, we could not be held accountable."

Sorry, Libby, we are not all "like God, " and God is Spirit, He does not have a spirit. You are mixing your Hinduism here with Christianity.

And how about all the times you've compromised the Gospel here to pander to and appease Mormons. Go read my thread on the emergent churches, and you'll see what I mean by the term.

[Libby]

I've never denied attending SRF for awhile and sharing that here. Have no idea why you think that would be "divisive". Divisions comes when people start making things personal and attack people personally for what they believe. A healthy debate about various religious beliefs is fine. But, personal attacks are not only divisive, they are against the rules of this board (and CARM).


Sorry, Libby, we are not all "like God"

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

[Apologette]

I've never denied attending SRF for awhile and sharing that here. Have no idea why you think that would be "divisive". Divisions comes when people start making things personal and attack people personally for what they believe. A healthy debate about various religious beliefs is fine. But, personal attacks are not only divisive, they are against the rules of this board (and CARM).



"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
Did you ever publicly repent of trying to draw people into Hinduism? You did it publicly, why not repent publicly? And as far as personal attacks go - how about the personal attacks against Jim? How about trying to drive him from here? Don't lecture me about rules.

[Apologette]

I've never denied attending SRF for awhile and sharing that here. Have no idea why you think that would be "divisive". Divisions comes when people start making things personal and attack people personally for what they believe. A healthy debate about various religious beliefs is fine. But, personal attacks are not only divisive, they are against the rules of this board (and CARM).



"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

But men are not God, as your Yogananda cult teaches, and they never will be - and by the way, the Mormon cult also makes gods out of men.......you seem drawn to that.

[Libby]

Then don't lecture me about things I haven't done and constantly trying to call me to repentance. You always make it personal, Apologette. How about if I call you and James to repentance for all of the nasty comments about me and others here on this board? You have a lot of nerve, considering your own behavior on this board and others.

[Libby]

But men are not God, as your Yogananda cult teaches, and they never will be - and by the way, the Mormon cult also makes gods out of men.......you seem drawn to that.

Yes, I have been drawn into some of that, but I do not believe anyone is going to become a "god". There is only One God.

[Apologette]

Yes, I have been drawn into some of that, but I do not believe anyone is going to become a "god". There is only One God.

And the demons believe that, and quiver with horror!

[Libby]

And this wasn't a personal insult directed to Jim? Are you the chief "fruit inspector" now?

Again, this was in response to untruths he was telling about me. He was calling me a Mormon (which I am not) and making stuff up about what I believe, even after being corrected several times.

And, if you'll notice, I did not leave MYSELF out of the above criticism. I am painfully aware of my shortcomings. Are you aware of yours?

[Apologette]

Again, this was in response to untruths he was telling about me. He was calling me a Mormon (which I am not) and making stuff up about what I believe, even after being corrected several times.

And, if you'll notice, I did not leave MYSELF out of the above criticism. I am painfully aware of my shortcomings. Are you aware of yours?
Look, to some Christians, even probably most, you appear to be hyper-sympathetic to Mormons and Mormonism. This is why some say you are "pandering" to them. Maybe you don't mean to be, but you obviously come across that way. Tell us about how you came to Christ.

[Libby]

Look, to some Christians, even probably most, you appear to be hyper-sympathetic to Mormons and Mormonism. This is why some say you are "pandering" to them. Maybe you don't mean to be, but you obviously come across that way. Tell us about how you came to Christ.

In regards to the Mormon people, I wouldn't say I am sympathetic, exactly. I, genuinely, care about them. I consider many here my friends...and frankly they have always treated me much better than some of the so-called Christians here. Sympathetic towards Mormonism...not at all. I am not a believer in any way, shape or form. But, I do, often, see critics misrepresenting what Mormons actually believe...which, sometimes, puts me in a position of appearing to defend Mormonism.

I have to leave, right now, so no time to really expand on my testimony of Christ (I do have one, but it's been more of a "process" than an "instant" conversion. I think that is true of many ex-Mormons (even Sandra & Jerald Tanner).

Anyway, this is what I wrote on this board about a year and half ago (I couldn't find the original post, but I found it in my files).

I'll talk more about this later, if anyone is interested.


For a couple of years, after leaving the LDS Church, my whole spiritual iden***y became...not really Christian...but EX-Mormon.

Hi, my name is Libby and I am an ex-Mormon. Let me tell you my story. (Kind of like AA)

It was very traumatic, leaving the church, because my spiritual iden***y was very intertwined with it. I think that's why I hung on to that "ex-Mormon" iden***y for so long. I still felt a part of the church, even if it was in a negative way.

I started going to mainstream churches (and I still do attend a Christian Reformed Church), but I still had one foot in the LDS Church, with my "ex-Mormon" status. People are always very interested in Mormons and telling people you're an ex-Mormon usually gets a lot of attention. When asked, I found myself describing the LDS Church in mostly negative terms. I was still very disappointed and feeling "lied to"...so, of course, I was giving that perspective. I talked about all of my disappointments and my disbelief to people in my new church and in places on the internet, including this very board. You will find a lot of my writing, here...and my perspective, at that time.

After a while, I wasn't feeling very good about myself, for carrying around this negative legacy. I was actually feeling kind of guilty for trying to interfere in/tear down the faith of others. It didn't seem right, even though I truly did not believe the church was true. I started really feeling this when I was talking to a young boy, over on CARM, who had gone to the LDS Church with complete faith. He came from a broken family and found a Father figure in the church (the Bishop). He needed that...but, he was listening to me, instead, and I was pulling him away. He has gone to a very worldly life, now...and I feel partly responsible. Perhaps, it was right for him, but I had some deep doubts about it...and did not like being in that position.

After that, I came to a decision. I was going to stop speaking against the LDS Church...at least, in the ways I had been doing it. I had no desire to go back, but I had to stop speaking against it. I felt very convicted of this.

For awhile, I kind of went to the other extreme and started defending the church, again. I didn't think of it as defending their beliefs, but rather defending against misunderstandings and lies about the church. There truly are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings about LDS doctrine.

That was fine, except I may have given a wrong impression to some here. Especially, in light of the fact that I was also doing some seeking, at the time, and experimenting with other beliefs and practices. To leave it all (Christian & LDS) was something I had to do for awhile...but, even still, always trying to make Christ the center, wherever I was. He is the center, for me...which is why I had to come back to mainstream Christianity and the Body of Christ. I was heavily drawn back into his light.

So, what now? I always have a feeling I am drawn to certain places for a reason. That reason is not always apparent, right away.

It is not God's will for me (at least not now) to be involved in anti-LDS ministries. But, I feel I shouldn't really interfere with them, either...even if I often see things I don't like.

But, since I do have so many (somewhat conflicting) posts on this forum, I wanted a chance to explain why so much confusion.

For some of us, leaving the church is not an easy process. It's long, it's painful and sometimes confusing. But, bottom line, as difficult as it was, it was the right thing, for me.

[Apologette]

In regards to the Mormon people, I wouldn't say I am sympathetic, exactly. I, genuinely, care about them. I consider many here my friends...and frankly they have always treated me much better than some of the so-called Christians here. Sympathetic towards Mormonism...not at all. I am not a believer in any way, shape or form. But, I do, often, see critics misrepresenting what Mormons actually believe...which, sometimes, puts me in a position of appearing to defend Mormonism.

I have to leave, right now, so no time to really expand on my testimony of Christ (I do have one, but it's been more of a "process" than an "instant" conversion. I think that is true of many ex-Mormons (even Sandra & Jerald Tanner).

Anyway, this is what I wrote on this board about a year and half ago (I couldn't find the original post, but I found it in my files).

I'll talk more about this later, if anyone is interested.

I'm interested. Before becoming a Mormon, what religious beliefs did you hold? Do you understand that Mormons are taught to believe in Another Jesus and Another Gospel? Do you agree with St. Paul's words found here:

Galatians 1: 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!…

Exactly when did you come to Jesus Christ? People say they have "Jesus" and "Christ," but often they mean something entirely different from the Biblical Jesus Christ (you find that explicitly in Mormonism and Yoganandaism by the way).

When did you come to the biblical Christ?

[alanmolstad]

I have to leave, right now, so no time to really expand on my......I got a big weekend too in store.....But we shall see how it goes...

[alanmolstad]

If you guys ever would debate Mormons it would be surprising. You have a Mormon on here saying that Joe Smith must have had a Ph.D. considering how brilliant her was on soteriology. Not one of you guys responded. I can't believe it. This is no longer an apologetic site! Pathetic.

1st...insulting this website as being "pathetic" is very offencive to not only the other guests, but to the owner that actuially wanted to close down this site because she lacked the free time to get mixed up with it anymore....

So I think you owe everyone an apology.


2nd, as for the subjects that each guest posts on?.....what business is that of you?
people have the chance here to post on any topic they are interested in and think that have something to share.
I post on the topics that I find interesting.
I dont give a rat's **** if you think I should post on the topics you are interested in posting on!

If you want to post on a topic dealing with "Mormon Drag Queens", good for you!...thats your call....

But dont turn around and think that just because you think a topic is in need of your comments that every other guest on the whole forum must also stop and also post on the very same topics that you do!

We are all guests here.......
Try to help people "enjoy" their visit....

Rather then meeting them at the door with the word "Pathetic", just because what drew them here was not on your list of things people should talk about.