Free Will

[Libby]

In my example it is the same.

And in my example the person who was pardoned was guilty.


As does the 1 who is pardoned by the Governor.

You falsely ***ume that it is for no other reason because of your preconceived ideas.

But those who are not saved are not his children. So your ****ogy is false. Let's use the Bible to correct your ****ogy to fit the truth.

Libby's example corrected to fit what the Bible teaches
My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their child. Suppose a parent had one child AND there are 9 ohter kids who live in your neighborhood and you gave a gift to your child but didn't a give gift to the neighborhood kids Wouldn't that be a bit strange?

What would be strange is for you to give a gift that you gave your child to every other kid who lived in your neighborhood.

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.

[Libby]

Acts 15:9
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What message is Peter trying to convey with this section of scripture?

Who are "them" in verse 8?

"Them" are the gentiles...and God does not discriminate.

[Libby]

Romans 2
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.

As above there is a comparison between the Jew and the Gentile. If a Jew breaks the commandments he will punished. If a gentile breaks the commandments he will be punished. Jews believed that because of their heritage that they would somehow be better off than the Gentiles. But Paul goes on to show them that both the Jew and the Gentile breaks the law.

Yes, and once again, it shows God does not discriminate.

This verse says: "but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good"

"everyone"

[Billyray]

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.
Your example about has nothing to do whatsoever with my original example or my follow up comments. Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

Libby you are hell bent on trying to defend your preconceived beliefs despite the fact that the Bible doesn't agree with your position--yet you are holding onto to these beliefs. Why do you seem to have such a hard time reading the Bible and accept what you are reading without trying to read your own biases into the text?

[Billyray]

Yes, and once again, it shows God does not discriminate.

This verse says: "but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good"

"everyone"
What point do you think Paul was trying to make in Romans 2? Could you give me a brief overview?

[Libby]

You think I am doing that...but, I think you are doing that, Billy. You're so used to seeing it through Calvinist theology, you can't seem to focus anywhere else.


Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do? Why would he or the Father discriminate? Especially, when he makes a point of telling us he doesn't discriminate....and that he invites ALL to come to him in faith.

[Billyray]

You think I am doing that...but, I think you are doing that, Billy. You're so used to seeing it through Calvinist theology, you can't seem to focus anywhere else.

I have seen it from the mormon point of view, from the arminian point of view, and the calvinist point of view--although I have seen it for all these points of view--the only view that I can support from the Bible is the Reformed or Calvinsit point of view. If the Bible taught the Arminian point of view I would have no problems holding this view. You on the other hand have this subjective personal belief of how God should act and you try your best to scour the Bible for anything you can to try and support it--while at the same time ignore verse and verse. This is exactly what the lds do when discussing the Bible.

[Billyray]

In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do? Why would he or the Father discriminate? Especially, when he makes a point of telling us he doesn't discriminate....and that he invites ALL to come to him in faith.
Merriam Webster
dis·crim·i·nate verb \dis-ˈkri-mə-ˌnāt\
: to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups

It is not "unfair" to punish the murderer for the crimes that he or she has committed even though one of the ten is pardoned.

[alanmolstad]

The offer of salvation goes out to all men,....so there is equality in the offer being made by God though His Son.
Thus the Lord does not "discriminate"

the offer is taken up by they who use there Free Will to believe.

Again this too is based on equality as all men have Free Will....

[alanmolstad]

Okay, you made a good point, but...if your neighbor's kid is drowning in a swimming pool, would you just let him drown or try to save him?

That is a much more accurate ****ogy.
Yes...!!!!!


Libby, Very good point to make.

As we read in John 3:16, God so loved the WHOLE WORLD........not just the few.....not just the elect........not just the believers......

But God loved the WHOLE WORLD, that He gave his only Son....

So the offer of the Son is made to the Whole World...(in the case of your example of the drowning kid, God moved to save the whole world of drowning kids.....and did so equally)

But God does not force people to believe against their Free Will....and the sad fact is that even they among us who are drowning in sin still refuse the one way out of their situation.
You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink.....
Christ said he would have gathered people to himself, but that the people "would not" allow it.


"Would not" is different than saying "could not"


So back to your example of the drowning kids in a pool....God tossed them the lifeline, but while many grab hold of it and are pulled to life, many dislike the lord so much that even the one lifeline they are given they refuse to grab......

Its not that they "could not" grasp the line,,,,but rather they die due to the fact that they "would not"

[Billyray]

The offer of salvation goes out to all men.
Hey Alan we finally agree on something--sort of--the offer of salvation goes out to all men--to those who have heard about Christ--and those who have heard about Him and his message have the "choice" to either place their faith in Him or reject Him.

But since we don't agree 100% on this one permit me to ask you a follow up question that will likely show where we actually differ.

Do you think that every single person that has ever lived upon the earth has heard about Christ and his message?

[Billyray]

As we read in John 3:16, God so loved the WHOLE WORLD........not just the few.....not just the elect........not just the believers......

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Alan this verse is 100% true as written. "Whoever believes" in Christ shall be saved. However has every single person in the WHOLE WORLD throughout the entire course of human history heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Do you think that every single person that has ever lived upon the earth has heard about Christ and his message?I posted a video that shows Walter Martin teaching that "No person ever went to Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ"

You are given a light from heaven...all of us...regardless of the age we lived in or the distance from the church....we all receive a light from heaven and if we respond to that light it draws us to the brighter light.

This is why we are told that we are judged according to how we judge others.....or are forgiven according to how we forgive others.
This is so because not all will hear about Jesus....not all of us in the whole human race will live during a time when there was a church, or a Bible.

I believe that "light" from heaven is still the Lord Christ.....so i cant say the person is free of all knowledge of Christ, as Christ is God, and the universe itself teaches us about God's nature....

[alanmolstad]

However has every single person in the WHOLE WORLD throughout the entire course of human history heard about Christ?

in a way, yes.

Christ is God.
The universe of things that are made show us "clearly" about the invisible nature of God.
Therefore the "light" that all men receive that we must respond to, is actually the light of Christ.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&list=PL12A55D36C180D6E8

[Libby]

I have seen it from the mormon point of view, from the arminian point of view, and the calvinist point of view--although I have seen it for all these points of view--the only view that I can support from the Bible is the Reformed or Calvinsit point of view. If the Bible taught the Arminian point of view I would have no problems holding this view. You on the other hand have this subjective personal belief of how God should act and you try your best to scour the Bible for anything you can to try and support it--while at the same time ignore verse and verse. This is exactly what the lds do when discussing the Bible.

I've held all of those points of view, as well, Billy, and I disagree that the Calvinist view is in the Bible. There are too many other indications, in there, that God loves us all and wishes for all to come to Him (that is nearly a direct quote). You are focusing in on what you "believe" it says and ignoring or somehow redefining anything that might take you in another direction.

[Libby]

Billy: Recall that my example was with 10 convicted murderers who were justly sentenced. So using your ****ogy it would go something like this--would you just let convicted murderers die or would you try to save them?

To repeat the question.....In reality, isn't that exactly what Jesus set out to do?

[Libby]

Merriam Webster
dis·crim·i·nate verb \dis-ˈkri-mə-ˌnāt\
: to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups

It is not "unfair" to punish the murderer for the crimes that he or she has committed even though one of the ten is pardoned.

You put the emphasis in the wrong place.

"to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups"

This is exactly what the Calvinist view does! It treats a group of people "differently" from other groups. It has God regenerating and thus saving a particular group of people, for no reason other than "his good pleasure". That is discrimination (which God does not do) and it's just wrong. Our Great God does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He wishes for ALL to come to Him.

[Libby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&list=PL12A55D36C180D6E8

This is good. Thanks, Alan!

[Billyray]

I posted a video that shows Walter Martin teaching that "No person ever went to Hell because they simply did not hear about Christ"

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them. That is the basis for sending anyone to Hell. For some reason you and Libby seem to forget that. And Alan you have said yourself that every single one of us is capable of keeping all of the commandments just like Jesus.

[Billyray]

in a way, yes.

Christ is God.
The universe of things that are made show us "clearly" about the invisible nature of God.
Therefore the "light" that all men receive that we must respond to, is actually the light of Christ.

Everyone has a knowledge that there is a God and everyone has an inner sense of right and wrong. But not every single person throughout the history of man has heard of Jesus. This alone disproves your belief that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Not to mention the Bible never says that the Father draws ALL to Christ.

[Billyray]

I've held all of those points of view, as well, Billy, and I disagree that the Calvinist view is in the Bible.
But you have yet to show me from the Bible that your position is correct. You have a point of view that feels right to you and you are digging and scratching to find anything to support your position--while ignoring verse after verse that shows that your position is wrong.

[Billyray]

. . ."to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups". . .
The Bible teaches us that we are given commandments to keep, we break those commandments, and each one of us are responsible for breaking them. We are ALL deserving of punishment and it would be fair and just to send every single one of us to Hell. Just like it is fair for the judge to sentence all 10 convicteds murderers for their crime.

But I want to comment on what you said above--"to unfairly treat a person or group of people differently from other people or groups". It is "fair" to punish a person for what they have done. But you seem to think that God treats all people the same. Let's start in the OT. Did God treat all people groups the same or did he have a chosen group of people?

[Billyray]

This is good. Thanks, Alan!

Do you believe that a person can be saved independent of Christ?

[Phoenix]

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them.
You left out the final reason whey people go to hell:
People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them and God chose to not save them.

It's like this scenario: A bunch of people were given the rules against walking out on a frozen lake. The people broke those rules and walked out on the ice, broke through, and are drowning. A lifeguard is watching all this as it occurs, and is able to save all of them. If any of those people drown, why did they drown?

Because they were given the rules, they broke the rules, and the lifeguard failed to save them.

In Calvinism, the lifeguard has 3 options: He can save all of the people from drowning, or just some of them, or none of them, and He chooses to save a few and let most of them drown.

That is unfair discrimination, because it's not fair to save a few of the people from drowning when all of them broke the rules....unless the ones He chooses to save, did something differently from the others--something that the lifeguard decided changed their status from "Let them drown" to "I should save them." Something that all the people had the ability to do, but some of them weren't willing to do it.
This is LDS soteriology, and perhaps Arminian soteriology as well.

[Billyray]

You left out the final reason whey people go to hell:
People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them and God chose to not save them.

If a person kept ALL of the commandments and lived a perfect life would that person live with God OR would he receive punishments? If you say punishment what would be the basis for that punishment?

[Billyray]

That is unfair discrimination, because it's not fair to save a few of the people from drowning when all of them broke the rules....
If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

[Libby]

But you have yet to show me from the Bible that your position is correct. You have a point of view that feels right to you and you are digging and scratching to find anything to support your position--while ignoring verse after verse that shows that your position is wrong.

Billy, this is simply not true. I've given Bible quotes that completely support my position. I've actually quoted a lot more from the Bible than you have. You keep giving me the same couple of verses over and over.

I'll get back to the other in awhile.

[Billyray]

Billy, this is simply not true. I've given Bible quotes that completely support my position. I've actually quoted a lot more from the Bible than you have. You keep giving me the same couple of verses over and over.

I disagree with your ***essment but I am happy to go over again with you. Let's start with the major point of contention which is whether or not the Father draws ALL men to Christ. You have said that you have given me lots of verses but I don't recall you giving me a single verse that shows that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ. Can you give me all of the verses that you are speaking about?

[alanmolstad]

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them. That is the basis for sending anyone to Hell. For some reason you and Libby seem to forget that. And Alan you have said yourself that every single one of us is capable of keeping all of the commandments just like Jesus.

The question I was asked was dealing with the matter of what is the fate of people that have never heard of Jesus?
the answer I have, is also the answer of Dr Walter Martin: "That no person is sent to hell because they have not heard of Christ"

Also, a person ends up in Hell because they have not responded to the light from heaven they have received.
This is what Walter talks about in the video.....He quotes the correct Scriptures to support his views and wraps it up nicely.

Now I dont know what else you are asking?.....


There is a basic way all of us are judged that Jesus pointed out...."Forgive us our sins as we forgive others"
Not only is this the way we in the church are judged by our Father, but this also is how they who never hear of the Lord are judged too!

Some Christians tend to fall into the trap of thinking that just because a person lives in a part of the world where the church has not yet reached that there is "no hope" for such people.
But while it may be true that people can live out of reach of the church, they NEVER are out of reach of God.
God is with them in every moment of their lives...God is always there, always reaching out to them with the light of heaven.

The Bible is very clear, if we search for God we will FIND him!.......We will find Him, even if we never are lucky enugh to read a page of the Bible, or ever hear the name of "Jesus"

[alanmolstad]

If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

Thats not really whats going on...

Its more like this...
!0 people are guilty of murder....all are sentenced to death.
But just before they are put to death an offer of forgiveness is given to all 10.

The ones that accept the offer of forgiveness get to walk out of jail free.

The ones that don't accept the offer are already convicted.

So this is all totally based on God being totally equal in his offer of salvation to men.

The problem is that some people refuse to accept the offer.
But Free Will is the reason for this....we are free and this means that not only can we decide to do a smart thing, we can also decide to not do a smart thing....
It's up to us.

[alanmolstad]

Do you believe that a person can be saved independent of Christ?

The thing is, Christ is god....and God is everywhere!....God is clearly seen in the things that are made...
Thus even if you never get a chance to learn about Jesus you still can search for god no matter what.
And thje bible teaches that if you search for God you will find him!

So, this means that even if you live in a far off land, (Like in an Arab country) with no way for the christian message to reach you, you are never far from god.
God is with you every day of your life...always with you...always drawing you to himself...always teaching you about Himself...

[alanmolstad]

there,,,that should do....

[alanmolstad]

If a person kept ALL of the commandments and lived a perfect life would that person live ?

Matthew 19:17

[alanmolstad]

so once again....the Son did nothing unless he saw the father doing it....thus when we read that the son draws people we understand that it is only because the Son sees the father drawing all people to Himself.

Thus the father draws all men to himself though the cross of Christ...

To disagree with this understanding is to show you dont have any idea about who Christ was........nor the relationship he has with the father....
remember by himself the son could do what?......NOTHING!


so if a person thinks that the son can draw people to himself but this does not mean the Father was also drawing them to himsef?...then you have left the christian faith and are mixed up in something else.

When the son draws all people, the father and the Spirit are also drawing them as well..for the son had no authority to do anything that the father did not agree with.......

[Libby]

Thats not really whats going on...

Its more like this...
!0 people are guilty of murder....all are sentenced to death.
But just before they are put to death an offer of forgiveness is given to all 10.

The ones that accept the offer of forgiveness get to walk out of jail free.

The ones that don't accept the offer are already convicted.

So this is all totally based on God being totally equal in his offer of salvation to men.

The problem is that some people refuse to accept the offer.
But Free Will is the reason for this....we are free and this means that not only can we decide to do a smart thing, we can also decide to not do a smart thing....
It's up to us.

Yes, this is almost exactly what I was going to say.

Billy, you are dancing all around the main issue, which is God extending salvation to ALL people, not just a few. On most everything else, I AGREE with you.

You did start to talk about the Old Testament and how God had a chosen people, back then. Yes, he did! But, were all of them saved? Nope!

AND THEN, in the NEW Testament, salvation was extended to ALL people!

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Again, as with Israel, some will accept, some will not.

[Phoenix]

If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

Yes, it is unfair, if there is nothing else going on that would justify such capriciousness.

You said THE reason people go to hell is that they have "been given God's laws and have broken them."

If that is THE reason--the ONLY thing that's going on--then no one should be let off the hook. Otherwise the people who go to hell could rightly say "But those people you're letting into heaven are people who have been given God's laws and have broken them, and they aren't going to hell."


Fairness when punishing people requires that all who are equally guilty, are equally punished unless some of them have done something to mitigate their punishment. Calvinists don't like that reasoning because to them it would mean that people play some role in their own salvation.

[Billyray]

Yes, it is unfair, if there is nothing else going on that would justify such capriciousness.

So you would agree with letting the other 9 convicted murderers go free? Would you say that this is a just punishment for their crimes?

[Billyray]

The question I was asked was dealing with the matter of what is the fate of people that have never heard of Jesus?
the answer I have, is also the answer of Dr Walter Martin: "That no person is sent to hell because they have not heard of Christ"

I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

[Billyray]

Billy, you are dancing all around the main issue, which is God extending salvation to ALL people, not just a few.
One thing that you and Alan seem to leave out it that anyone who has heard about Christ is given the invitation to come to Christ and anyone who places their faith in Him will be saved. Those who are not regenerated make a conscious choice and it is the choice that they want to make when they reject Him. They are not forced by God to reject Christ just like they are not forced by God to break the commandments--they choose to do so.

[Billyray]

Fairness when punishing people requires that all who are equally guilty, are equally punished.
Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?

[alanmolstad]

I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

what did you hear in the video?.......is that what you heard?......

[alanmolstad]

One thing that you and Alan seem to leave out it .

can you name a place where that was left out?.....

[alanmolstad]

Yes, this is almost exactly what I was going to say.

.

Then you have learned well my Padawan

:)

[alanmolstad]

Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?
The people who are convicted and guilty are about to receive their sentence, when the Lord offers a way to be forgiven.

But the Lord does not force us to accept his forgiveness.....

And because the Lord loves the whole world, the offer goes out to all men....God is always drawing us to himself.
if you respond to the light from heaven you receive you will be drawn to the greater light of Christ....

so the punishment is equal...and the offer of salvation is equal...and all men have the same free will to decide...

[Billyray]

what did you hear in the video?.......is that what you heard?......
Alan I am asking you what YOU believe. So that is why I said "I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

Can you help me understand what you really believe?

[alanmolstad]

Alan I am asking you what YOU believe. So that is why I said "I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

Can you help me understand what you really believe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&list=PL12A55D36C180D6E8

Just watch the first 50 seconds.......
Walter says it far better than i ever could print here...

Just the first 50 seconds or so....and the answer is there,

[Billyray]

The people who are convicted and guilty are about to receive their sentence, when the Lord offers a way to be forgiven.

That is true Allen. We are all guilty and all of us deserve punishment and a "just" judge would sentence us because that is the "just" thing to do. Christ provides us with a pardon--to those who accept his invitation--even though we are guilty and deserve punishment.


But the Lord does not force us to accept his forgiveness.....

I agree with you 100% on this one Allen. Those who place their faith in Christ do so because that is what they want to do and those who reject Christ do so because that is the choice that they want to make. Hey Allen we actually agree on something.


And because the Lord loves the whole world, the offer goes out to all men....God is always drawing us to himself.

This seems to be the area that we disagree. I believe that the Father draws some--but not all--to Christ. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. However I have yet to see either you or Libby give me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. In fact John 6 says the opposite. Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?

[Billyray]

Just watch the first 50 seconds.......
Walter says it far better than i ever could print here...

Just the first 50 seconds or so....and the answer is there,
Allen I have watched it. But as I said I am interested in what YOU believe. Certainly you have a position on this vital topic.

From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

[alanmolstad]

im saying what the bible says....

jesus is god Almighty
The invisible nature of god is clealy shown man in the things that are made.....so they are without excuse......excuse for what?...their "Unbelief!".....

So this 100% means that even if you never hear a word of the bible.....even if you live during a time when there is no church....and even if you NEVER hear of this guy named "Jesus" you still are given enough light from heaven by God Almighty to find Him.


Live alone on a world on the dark side of the universe?....no problem, for God Almighty (Jesus) is right there with you...watching you,,,drawing you to Himself every day..


So, as Walter says, we can end up in Hell if we dont respond to the light from Heaven we are given.
But if we do respond, then the Bible teaches clearly that if we seek God we will find him.

case-closed!




this is what i teach,,,this is what i have shown W Martin taught before me....and i believe it's as clear as I can make it

[alanmolstad]

Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?over and over I have shown you that the son can do what by himself ?................


NOTHING!




The son was sent to do whose will?......his own or his father's?............

The father's

[Billyray]

im saying what the bible says....

jesus is god Almighty
The invisible nature of god is clealy shown man in the things that are made.....so they are without excuse......excuse for what?...their "Unbelief!".....

So this 100% means that even if you never hear a word of the bible.....even if you live during a time when there is no church....and even if you NEVER hear of this guy named "Jesus" you still are given enough light from heaven by God Almighty to find Him.

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?

[Billyray]

This seems to be the area that we disagree. I believe that the Father draws some--but not all--to Christ. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. However I have yet to see either you or Libby give me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. In fact John 6 says the opposite. Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?

over and over I have shown you that the son can do what by himself ?................


NOTHING!

The son was sent to do whose will?......his own or his father's?............

The father's
Allen I believe what I do because I have verses that substantiate what I believe. I would hope that you would do the same in that base your beliefs on the Bible so I am sure you must have some verses that say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. I am simply asking you to share those with me.

[alanmolstad]

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?
Im done answering that question....

I have given you the answer
My answer is correct
My answer is the only correct answer......But sometimes the horse simply does not drink.

[alanmolstad]

what can the son do by himself apart from the father?..............

[alanmolstad]

the son did many many things....of these things, what ones did Jesus say he did apart from the father?

[alanmolstad]

the son said many many things....of these things, what things did Jesus say were just his own ideas and not from the father?

[alanmolstad]

so when we read where the son is speaking, we know that it is the father's words as spoken though the son

[alanmolstad]

just as when we read that the son is doing something, we know that it is the father that is doing it though the son...

[alanmolstad]

so when we read that the son draws all men, we know that its the father that is doing the drawing.


(The son cant draw squat by himself)

[alanmolstad]

so once again.....I have given you the answer
The answer is correct
and it is the only correct answer

[alanmolstad]

and....I am also Done answering that question too.

Billy, you know full well where I stand on these matters...
I have answered all your questions...I have provided videos where Dr Walter martin teaches the very same concepts i have been quoting in my posts.
I have made up nothing by myself.
I also have made my posts as clear as i could hope to make them.
I find that I am fully satisfied with what i have given here, and so would refer you to my past posts if you still have lingering questions about what i believe.

[Billyray]

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?


Im done answering that question....

I have given you the answer
My answer is correct
My answer is the only correct answer......But sometimes the horse simply does not drink.

Perhaps I missed your post where where you answered my question. Could you tell me which post that was in so I can take a look at it?

[alanmolstad]

look for yourself.....

[Libby]

Billy, you've seen enough of both mine and Alan's argument to know where we stand. And, your verses do not uphold your position regarding God not drawing all men. You think they do, but they really don't, when you consider other scripture and get a bigger picture.

I think there is one area where Alan and I disagree and that is in regards to whether or not we can keep all the commandments perfectly. But, on the subject of "drawing all men" we are in perfect agreement. God would do no less. He does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He is drawing ALL people to Himself, through the Son.

[Billyray]

And, your verses do not uphold your position regarding God not drawing all men. You think they do, but they really don't, when you consider other scripture and get a bigger picture.

Libby you haven't given me a single verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Compare this to my position where I have given you three sets of scripture just within John 6 only that indicate that the Father does not draw all men to Christ. Second there is no chance that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ since not all men have even heard of Christ. Libby you are simply wrong on this one.

[Libby]

Not at all. :)

[Phoenix]

So you would agree with letting the other 9 convicted murderers go free? Would you say that this is a just punishment for their crimes?

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

What is unfair is the favoritism that I see in the way Calvinism describes who goes to hell and who doesn't, and why.

[Libby]

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

What is unfair is the favoritism that I see in the way Calvinism describes who goes to hell and who doesn't, and why.

Exactly.....

[Phoenix]

Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?

Sure, when a judicial system is run right, fairness in sentencing exists. The guy who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family gets a lighter sentence than the serial killer who murdered 10 people for fun. And the baby who hit another baby with a rattle doesn't get sentenced at all. A wise and fair and merciful judge looks at each defendant's circumstances--not just the circumstances of the crime, but the circumstances of the defendant's childhood, ethnic background, era in history when they lived, alternative choices that were or weren't available to them at the time they committed the crime....and THEN renders judgment.

That is how any judicial system SHOULD be run, on earth or in heaven.

Of all beings in the universe, God should qualify as the best judge in existence because He has no excuse to not be totally fair, wise, and merciful. After all: He's GOD. For Him to pardon one defendant but sentence another to eternity in hell, even though one did nothing different from the other, would be unthinkable to God, and it should be unthinkable for us to think that God would be such a lame judge.

[alanmolstad]

Libby....what commandment was given that god never once ever expected people to keep?......In other words....what Commandment was given to men with the instruction that it was just for "looks"....and that people did not have to take it serious?

[alanmolstad]

another question:

http://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm

was God serious when he told the girl to "go and sin no more"?

[Phoenix]

another question:

http://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm

was God serious when he told the girl to "go and sin no more"?

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.

[alanmolstad]

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.
"that sin".....?

By this are you saying that Jesus was not concerned with her other sins?
she did not have to change her life?.....just that one sin alone?


you see such an idea in the words of Christ there?

How so?

[alanmolstad]

when you read the different translations and get an idea of what the verse is saying, I dont see how you can come up with the idea that the girl was not told to go and 'sin no more"

It seems to be the preponderance of views of the translators of this verse that this was a general instruction for how the person is to live....and not limited at all!

Now we know full well that the girl was there because she was in-fact guilty of a sin that she was caught red-handed in....so that is naturally on everyone's mind.
But when Jesus sends her off he does so with a very wide-ranging command for her to follow....."Sin no more"



I doubt Jesus was telling her, "Well only stop doing the sins you got caught doing", for that sounds like something a 2-year old would think up.(Stop doing the stuff you get caught doing)

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6HLg2XUFOg

[disciple]

I think we all would agree that scripture should be the final authority, that God is
no respecter of persons and that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So if we look at how God dealt with the people of Israel, could we say that He would
give all people the same consideration He showed them?
Romans 1:20-21 says,” For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” This says to me that all people know there is a God but some choose to reject Him. Ezekiel 2:1-7 seems to say that God tells Ezekiel to give the people His word and whether they accept it or not is their choice, but they will know they did have a choice.
“And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse—for they are a rebellious house—yet they will know that a prophet has been among them.
“And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you dwell among scorpions; do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their looks, though they are a rebellious house. You shall speak My words to them, whether they hear or whether they refuse, for they are rebellious. “
Just something to ponder.

[Libby]

Disciple, I think, ultimately, God did give ALL the same consideration that was given to Israel.

[Libby]

Libby....what commandment was given that god never once ever expected people to keep?......In other words....what Commandment was given to men with the instruction that it was just for "looks"....and that people did not have to take it serious?

I don't think it was any one commandment. I don't think it was even a matter of "expectation", exactly. Holiness is a state in which God exists. Perfect, pure, untainted. Our sin nature, inherited from Adam and Eve, caused an inability to keep the commandments perfectly (especially in our hearts)..and this was keeping us separated from God. Our condition (which is innate...it is a part of our human nature) was something God knew we could not overcome...which is why He sent His Son.

If we could have truly overcome this sin nature, on our own, then we would not have needed God's help, in the form of His Son.

[Phoenix]

when you read the different translations and get an idea of what the verse is saying, I dont see how you can come up with the idea that the girl was not told to go and 'sin no more"
No one is saying that Jesus was telling her to keep on sinning.


It seems to be the preponderance of views of the translators of this verse that this was a general instruction for how the person is to live....and not limited at all!
Context. What was the context of this whole story? Adultery. In that context, it seems to me that what was so effective at stopping the would-be stone throwers in their tracks, was that they themselves were guilty of having committed adultery. That's why when Jesus said "Let any of you who hasn't committed (THIS) sin throw the first stone," they all had to drop their rocks, because none of them was innocent of this sin.

I am also aware of the theory that those accusers of the woman had all committed adultery with HER, which makes them even bigger hypocrites for wanting to execute her for the sin.

The reason Jesus most probably did NOT mean "Let he who is totally, 100% innocent of ANY sin WHATSOEVER throw the first rock at her" is that its implications would be that He was against anyone being punished for anything, which makes little sense.



Now we know full well that the girl was there because she was in-fact guilty of a sin that she was caught red-handed in....so that is naturally on everyone's mind.
But when Jesus sends her off he does so with a very wide-ranging command for her to follow....."Sin no more"
I doubt Jesus was telling her, "Well only stop doing the sins you got caught doing", for that sounds like something a 2-year old would think up.(Stop doing the stuff you get caught doing)
Aren't we all like 2-year-olds in a sense? Did Jesus REALLY expect that woman, who had probably been committing adultery many, many times, to suddenly cease from all sins of every kind? That seems very, very, unreasonable. What is reasonable is that He meant "I just saved you from being executed for adultery. Don't do it anymore."

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins


It's one thing to tell someone like Paul "Up to now you have been an accomplice to the persecution and killing of Christians. Stop doing that right now and never do it again." It's quite another to tell him "Stop committing any sins at all, right now."

[Billyray]

I think there is one area where Alan and I disagree and that is in regards to whether or not we can keep all the commandments perfectly. But, on the subject of "drawing all men" we are in perfect agreement. God would do no less. He does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He is drawing ALL people to Himself, through the Son.
As you said we seem to disagree on whether or not the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Perhaps we can sort this out. Permit me to ask you a few questions about your position. Let's start with this one.

Do you believe that faith in Christ is required for salvation?

Or do you believe that any belief in a "high power" is all that is necessary for salvation?

[Billyray]

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

If a murderer felt really bad that he has killed someone should he go free?

[Billyray]

Disciple, I think, ultimately, God did give ALL the same consideration that was given to Israel.
Did God have a chosen people in the OT?

[Billyray]

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.
So what exactly is your position? Is salvation based on keeping the commandments?

[Billyray]

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins
So what is the point that you are trying to make? That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?

[alanmolstad]

So what exactly is your position? Is salvation based on keeping the commandments?
yes......Jesus makes that clear

[alanmolstad]

I don't think it was any one commandment. .
so when you look at the list of Commandments that have ever been given....you dont find any that were just for "looks"?

Everyone of them was something that people could keep?

[Libby]

Did God have a chosen people in the OT?

Yes, he did and he still does. Those who believe and follow him.

Were all of the Israelites saved?

[Libby]

so when you look at the list of Commandments that have ever been given....you dont find any that were just for "looks"?

Everyone of them was something that people could keep?

When it comes to the early laws, the Mosaic Law, there were hundreds of laws...I don't think I even know all of them. But, those in Christ are no longer under the law.


Philippians 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surp***ing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ

We're not saved by obeying the law or commands. We obey, because we are saved in Christ. We are in him and he is in us. It's his righteousness that saves us, not our own.

[Phoenix]

If a murderer felt really bad that he has killed someone should he go free?

He shouldn't be punished as severely as a murderer who doesn't feel bad at all.

[Phoenix]

So what is the point that you are trying to make?
I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.


That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?
The issue was punishment. In a fair judicial system, a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy is punished a little bit less than the next guy. Making the punishment fit the crime is an "essential doctrine" of any fair system.

[Billyray]

I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.

Wouldn't it be fair and just to punish all of us for being law breakers?

[Billyray]

In a fair judicial system, a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy is punished a little bit less than the next guy. Making the punishment fit the crime is an "essential doctrine" of any fair system.
Then you would agree that the judicial system is not fair. Right?

And how does this relate to how we are judged by God as it relates to the Bible?

[Billyray]

Which is more reasonable:

a--that we would be able to instantly stop committing the most grievous of our sins;
b--that we would be able to instantly stop committing ALL of our sins

So what is the point that you are trying to make? That a person who sins a little bit less than the next guy will be saved?


I already made it. It was about fairness in punishment.

But the post that I quoted wasn't speaking about punishment rather it was about stopping some sins verses all sins? Perhaps you could address that instead of something else.

[Phoenix]

Wouldn't it be fair and just to punish all of us for being law breakers?

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.

[Billyray]

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.
If we are law breakers then a "just" judge will punish us for our crimes. Right?

[disciple]

If we are law breakers then a "just" judge will punish us for our crimes. Right?

Fairness and degree of sin seem to be based on human reasoning. James 2:10 says,"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Without Jesus, one lie will keep you separated from God as quickly as 10 murders will.

[Libby]

It would be fairer than letting some off scot-free when they had done nothing differently than the ones who are punished.

This is my point, as well. The Bible says, in numerous places, that God does not discriminate. I listed several verses in one of my posts above. God does not randomly choose for salvation.

[Apologette]

This is my point, as well. The Bible says, in numerous places, that God does not discriminate. I listed several verses in one of my posts above. God does not randomly choose for salvation.
This is not the forum to discuss your rejection of Reformed theology. We are to discuss Mormonism. Read Romans 9 and try to reconcile it with your very flawed understanding of the Bible.

[Libby]

It's not your place to decide what is discussed here, Apologette, and I am not the only one discussing it. I didn't even start this thread.

There are very few posters here, right now, so I don't think anyone really cares. Would you like to see the board even more dead that it is now?

This conversation has been a good one and Billy has been kind enough to facilitate it.

[Billyray]

Without Jesus, one lie will keep you separated from God as quickly as 10 murders will.
That is absolutely true. Since we all sin and fall short the only hope for any one of us is by placing our faith in Christ.

[Billyray]

Yes, he did and he still does. Those who believe and follow him.

And in the OT who were those people?

[Libby]

And in the OT who were those people?

The Israelites.

[Billyray]

The Israelites.
God picked out a specific group of people with ordinances and sacrifices for sins. God did not provide this to others groups. Is that fair?

[Libby]

Whatever God does is "fair"...but I think we have to see the bigger picture, in order to see that, in the end, all really was fair, as he extended his grace and salvation to all peoples, without regard to race, gender or any other distinguishing characteristic.

[Christian]

.....

Well thats fine,,,,,now Im going to ask you a question too...

What is the difference between "would not" and "could not"?

That is EASY. . .THE ABILITY TO DO IT.

I would not throw a match at a pool of gasoline. . .BUT I COULD! I know how to light the match and am a pretty good tosser!

So the challenge STILL STANDS:

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE that God ever gave anyone 'free will' at all, and I will show you where God said we are either a SLAVE TO SIN or a SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that we were BOUGHT from sin BY JESUS ON THE CROSS who PAID FOR US.

I don't think you can SHOW US how we could thwart God IF HE DRAWS US!

In Jesus,
morefish

[Libby]

That is EASY. . .THE ABILITY TO DO IT.

I would not throw a match at a pool of gasoline. . .BUT I COULD! I know how to light the match and am a pretty good tosser!

So the challenge STILL STANDS:

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE that God ever gave anyone 'free will' at all, and I will show you where God said we are either a SLAVE TO SIN or a SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that we were BOUGHT from sin BY JESUS ON THE CROSS who PAID FOR US.

I don't think you can SHOW US how we could thwart God IF HE DRAWS US!

In Jesus,
morefish




"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Seems like God/Jesus is asking us to do something, here. To exercise our "will" and open the door.

[Billyray]

Whatever God does is "fair"...but I think we have to see the bigger picture, in order to see that, in the end, all really was fair, as he extended his grace and salvation to all peoples, without regard to race, gender or any other distinguishing characteristic.
I bring this up because you have said the electing some--but not all--is not fair. Yet we see that in the OT God picks out a chosen race--which is some but not all--who received God's word, ordinances, sacrifices for sins, and the had the opportunity to receive the words of God and benefit from the offerings, and the knowledge of a coming messiah that they could place their faith in. This was NOT available to ALL people throughout the world. Aren't you be hypocritical with your position about election?

[Billyray]

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Seems like God/Jesus is asking us to do something, here. To exercise our "will" and open the door.
Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

[Libby]

I bring this up because you have said the electing some--but not all--is not fair. Yet we see that in the OT God picks out a chosen race--which is some but not all--who received God's word, ordinances, sacrifices for sins, and the had the opportunity to receive the words of God and benefit from the offerings, and the knowledge of a coming messiah that they could place their faith in. This was NOT available to ALL people throughout the world. Aren't you be hypocritical with your position about election?

Inconsistent, you mean? No, not really.

Yes, I knew that's what you were getting at, several posts ago. Yes, God had a "chosen people" in the Israelites (we all know that), but as I said earlier, that all changed when he opened up the Gospel to the whole world. He still has a "chosen people", but they are from all nations, races, etc., and they are chosen, because they believe in Jesus Christ.

[Libby]

Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

What does that verse mean to you, Billy? What did God mean when he asks that we open the door? Was he just kidding?

[Billyray]

What does that verse mean to you, Billy? What did God mean when he asks that we open the door? Was he just kidding?
The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

[Libby]

The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

lol...no, He was not. And, no, we "cannot"...at least, not perfectly.

[Libby]

I see the inconsistency in my argument. I just can't get past the idea that God could hold us responsible, if he is pulling all the strings...

[Billyray]

I see the inconsistency in my argument. I just can't get past the idea that God could hold us responsible, if he is pulling all the strings...
I think I understand your position because when I first came out of Mormonism into Christianity in hindsight I would cl***ify my beliefs as "Arminian" even though I had no real grasp of Calvinism or Arminianism. But over the year of studying the Bible since then I just couldn't substantiate the "Arminian" position from the scriptures. Let's look at the keeping the commandments. We all choose to either obey or disobey the commandments--these are real choices that we make--and when we choose to disobey them we are at fault. The same goes for those who hear about Christ--they have a choice to either accept Him or reject Him and they are held responsible for that choice.

[Libby]

I think I understand your position because when I first came out of Mormonism into Christianity in hindsight I would cl***ify my beliefs as "Arminian" even though I had no real grasp of Calvinism or Arminianism. But over the year of studying the Bible since then I just couldn't substantiate the "Arminian" position from the scriptures. Let's look at the keeping the commandments. We all choose to either obey or disobey the commandments--these are real choices that we make--and when we choose to disobey them we are at fault. The same goes for those who hear about Christ--they have a choice to either accept Him or reject Him and they are held responsible for that choice.

It's funny, because I had a Calvinist "teacher" (someone who was witnessing to me), before I ever came out of Mormonism. He presented the Calvinist position so plainly that I had no doubt (at the time) that it was correct. He spent, probably, a couple of years going through the Bible with me. I kept arguing with him, like I have been with you, and finally had to admit that his view is in the Bible. I later accepted that as the correct view, which is how I ended up in a Reformed Church. But, the longer I sat with it and the more I thought about...even though I could see it in there, I couldn't "logically" comprehend it. Why would God choose only "some" for salvation? How could we be held responsible for a "sin nature" we were born with and had no hand in creating? Just lots of questions...thus, my wandering and searching...and questioning if that truly is the correct position. So, I started reading more about Arminanism and how they come to some of their beliefs, through the Bible..

[Libby]

Needless to say, I still don't have it all sorted out.

[Christian]

Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

Hey Billy,
I'm just curious. . .WHICH COMMANDMENTS are we to follow? The 10? The 619? The 2?

Just curious about your thought here. . .Last I heard CHRISTIANITY is not about keeping commandments, but about LOVING THE LORD and LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR. . .NOT like the mormon religion that seems to be all about 'doing ordinances.' What do YOU think?

[Christian]

The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

AND WILL or CAN all come? What do YOU do with John 6:44 and John 6:65 that say NOBODY CAN, UNLESS. . .?

[Christian]

You are always free to chouse what you want...God never takes away this Free Will that you have Libby...Never!

Do YOU REALLY BELIEVE that YOU CAN WANT what you don't understand, what is foolishness to you?

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1
NKJV

Can a DEAD person choose to come to life?

Or does someone (GOD) need to DRAW him out of his deathbed?

Perhaps you should think that out a bit.

Perhaps you should study your Bible a bit more.

[Libby]

AND WILL or CAN all come? What do YOU do with John 6:44 and John 6:65 that say NOBODY CAN, UNLESS. . .?

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn. Calvinists make this connection between "drawing" and "regeneration" that is not actually in the verse. It is inferred.

[Billyray]

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn.
When you say ALL are drawn do you mean that ALL are drawn by the Father to Christ?

[Billyray]

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn. Calvinists make this connection between "drawing" and "regeneration" that is not actually in the verse. It is inferred.
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Why did those in verse 64 not believe according to Jesus?

[Billyray]

Hey Billy,
I'm just curious. . .WHICH COMMANDMENTS are we to follow? The 10? The 619? The 2?

Just curious about your thought here. . .Last I heard CHRISTIANITY is not about keeping commandments, but about LOVING THE LORD and LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR. . .NOT like the mormon religion that seems to be all about 'doing ordinances.' What do YOU think?

None of us keep the commandments. The more commandments that are given the more that are broken. Salvation is based on faith in Christ not our works.

Romans 4
1.What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


I don't think you understood the point that I was trying to make when speaking about obedience to the commandments. Libby's argument was that if the basis for salvation is faith in Christ and those who are not elect do not have the ability to place their faith in Christ then they don't have a real choice to choose him. But the same argument could be make for obedience to the commandments. We are commanded to obey the commandments but we do not have the ability to keep them so using her argument we do not have a real choice to keep the commandments. Does that help you understand why I used this example?

[Libby]

When you say ALL are drawn do you mean that ALL are drawn by the Father to Christ?

I mean that the Father is attracting everyone, but only some will respond. He knows in advance who those will be.

[Libby]

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Why did those in verse 64 not believe according to Jesus?

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

I would read that as "the beginning of time" or before the earth was formed. Is that how you read that?

Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.

[Billyray]

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Those who did not believe in verse 64 were not enabled to do so. This proves that the Father does not draw ALL men to Christ.

[Billyray]

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

You keep bringing this up but you don't explain why you think this is relevant to the situation. Can you explain this for me?




Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.
Jesus says in John 6 that those who are drawn by the Father to Christ will be raised. It never says that ALL are drawn and a few are raised.

[Billyray]

I mean that the Father is attracting everyone, but only some will respond. He knows in advance who those will be.
I am still not clear what you mean when you say ALL are drawn. Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

You said "He knows in advance who those will be." Tell me how this plays out from your perspective because I am still unclear what you believe about this.

[alanmolstad]

I am still not clear what you mean when you say ALL are drawn. Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

.
I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

[alanmolstad]

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Did you also notice that Jesus "knew from the beginning which of them did not believe?

I would read that as "the beginning of time" or before the earth was formed. Is that how you read that?

Remember that many, many people were attracted or drawn to Jesus, in the beginning of his ministry, but not all stayed with him.



This is very true lets remember that the whole of the human race is drawn to the cross of Christ by God.
Yet some hear, some do not pay attention to what they hear, some listen for a time and then go after something else...poor roots and stuff.

But God knew from the beginning who would believe (naturally as God knows all things) yet God never takes away out Free Will in the effort to save the elect.


Keep up the Good work Libby!......you are an inspiration for us who cant always find the time to post here,

[Billyray]

I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

Alan perhaps you could clear this up for me and tell me what you believe.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Alan perhaps you could clear this up for me and tell me what you believe.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?Once again......same answer...

You fake your ignorance poorly.

[Billyray]

Once again......same answer...

You fake your ignorance poorly.
Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYaHleCh5xw
Dude......move on

we have already done that...
I have answered the question fully and completely.

lets not allow you to get 'stuck" when you simply turn into a skipping record and keep asking the same question over and over...

(You do remember how that is not something I put up with?)

[Libby]

Those who did not believe in verse 64 were not enabled to do so. This proves that the Father does not draw ALL men to Christ.

Okay, I see.

I am reading it as:

...all are drawn

...only some will believe

...those who believe will be "enabled" by the Father to come to Christ

[Libby]

You keep bringing this up but you don't explain why you think this is relevant to the situation. Can you explain this for me?



Jesus says in John 6 that those who are drawn by the Father to Christ will be raised. It never says that ALL are drawn and a few are raised.

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.

[Libby]

Alan I didn't see any answer to my question. It isn't a difficult question--could you answer it for me?

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

Actually, Alan did answer that some time ago. He referred to the "light of Christ" covering the earth (or being in all men? something like that)....remember? Pretty sure he had some scripture references to go with it.

[Billyray]

...those who believe will be "enabled" by the Father to come to Christ
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You have belief coming before being enabled.

BTW you continue to believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ--but you have not shown me this from the scriptures. Perhaps you could answer a few questions for me

1. Do you believe that ALL men that have ever lived have heard about Christ?

2. Is salvation based on faith in Christ OR simply a belief in a god or higher power?

[Billyray]

Actually, Alan did answer that some time ago. He referred to the "light of Christ" covering the earth (or being in all men? something like that)....remember?
So would you say that his answer is a yes or no that every person that has lived on this earth has heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.
But I thought that you believed that ALL are drawn not MANY. So do you believe ALL are drawn or MANY are drawn?

[Billyray]

Dude......move on

If you answer my question or link me to the post where you think you answered my question I will move on.

Do you believe that ALL men who have lived on the earth have heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

My thinking is more along the lines of Matthew 22:14 "many are called, but few are chosen".

If many are called, who is calling them? I see that as the same or similar to being "drawn". Many are drawn but few are actual believers...only believers will be able to come to Christ.
ESV STUDY BIBLE
". . .22:14 Many (Gk. polloi) are called means that many have been invited to the wedding feast. But not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there, because few are chosen. This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”:the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not. However, Paul also mentions another kind of calling, an effective calling from God that comes powerfully to individuals and brings a positive response. When the gospel is proclaimed, only some are effectively called—that is, those who are the elect, who respond with true faith (1 Cor. 1:24, 26–28). This is consistent with Jesus 'statement that “few are chosen,” for the ones “chosen” (Gk. eklektos, “selected, chosen”) are “the elect,” a term used by Jesus to refer to his true disciples (cf. Matt. 11:27; 24:22, 24, 31; on the theme of election, see note on Rom. 9:11). . ."

[Libby]

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You have belief coming before being enabled.

BTW you continue to believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ--but you have not shown me this from the scriptures. Perhaps you could answer a few questions for me

1. Do you believe that ALL men that have ever lived have heard about Christ?

2. Is salvation based on faith in Christ OR simply a belief in a god or higher power?

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.

[Libby]

But I thought that you believed that ALL are drawn not MANY. So do you believe ALL are drawn or MANY are drawn?

I do believe all are called, because the Bible says so. The "many" vs the "few" is just a poetic way of saying that not all will answer the call.

[Libby]

ESV STUDY BIBLE
". . .22:14 Many (Gk. polloi) are called means that many have been invited to the wedding feast. But not all those invited are actually the ones who are supposed to be there, because few are chosen. This has been described as the doctrine of a “general calling”:the gospel is proclaimed to all people everywhere, both those who will believe and those who will not. However, Paul also mentions another kind of calling, an effective calling from God that comes powerfully to individuals and brings a positive response. When the gospel is proclaimed, only some are effectively called—that is, those who are the elect, who respond with true faith (1 Cor. 1:24, 26–28). This is consistent with Jesus 'statement that “few are chosen,” for the ones “chosen” (Gk. eklektos, “selected, chosen”) are “the elect,” a term used by Jesus to refer to his true disciples (cf. Matt. 11:27; 24:22, 24, 31; on the theme of election, see note on Rom. 9:11). . ."

Which study Bible are you using, Billy? I have a Reformation Study Bible (ESV) and it says, basically, the same thing, but not exactly. Close enough, though. And, yes, of course the study notes will give a Calvinist interpretation, if they were written by a Calvinist.

I know about the "general call" vs the "particular call".

[alanmolstad]

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.

the lesser light will lead us to the greater light....
but remember its all the same light.
and that single light is Christ.

so when the bible tells us that the things that are made show us about god...we can know that what is being shown to us is Christ!

Christ made all things so the handywork of god on display shows all people about Jesus!

[Libby]

Thanks for repeating that, Alan. I had forgotten exactly what you said. (Obviously, Billy has forgotten, as well ;-) )

[alanmolstad]

Thanks for repeating that, Alan. I had forgotten exactly what you said. (Obviously, Billy has forgotten, as well ;-) )
I dont actually think Billy is really asking anything....dont ask me what game he has going however...

What we know is that the Bible tells us that there is so much seen true about God's nature just all around us in the things that are made that none of us has any "excuse"
This verse came up once in my bible cl***, and the question was asked about it "Excuse for what?"

the context tells us that what the 'excuse" is talking about...its saying that the things about God that lead a person to faith and SALVATION are "clearly seen" in the things that are made.

This is not an accident too!

It's not an accident that God is shown 'clearly" in the things that are made because it was Jesus that made all things!

So these invisible things about God's nature that are being said are shown clearly to all men, are dealing with "Jesus Christ!"
this is why we can say that all men have received from Heaven a light, and that light is the light of Christ!

This is why the answer to the question Billy asks about dealing with if all men have received the drawing action to the Lord Jesus Christ?...is ..."yes"

The truth is, that all men are receiving this drawing action by God to come to Christ....for from the beginning of the world this same message about God has been clearly seen in the things that are made....
Creation reflects only one person's hand....for it reflects the handywork of none other that same Jesus!


This is why none of us has an excuse!

God is drawing all men to himself.

For when Christ was raised up he truly did draw all men to himself!

[alanmolstad]

Which study Bible are you using, Billy? I have a Reformation Study Bible (ESV) and it says, basically, the same thing, but not exactly. Close enough, though. And, yes, of course the study notes will give a Calvinist interpretation, if they were written by a Calvinist.

I know about the "general call" vs the "particular call".

Im not sure about some of these terms....But this is what i do know for sure.

I know that the whole universe draws men to god , for it is true that the very nature of god is "clearly seen" in the things that are made.
So much so that a person has no excuse for not believing.....and the only believing that counts is the belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

thus you can say that the universe is an active calling of god to us to believe.

This is kinda like in my home town when the church bell rings on Sunday morning.
Everyone in town hears the bell.....just as everyone born sees clearly the things of God's nature reflected in the things that are made.

But not everyone listens to the church bell, they hear it, but they dont get dressed and go to church.
Just as not everyone responds to the drawing of God.

All receive, some respond......many are called, few are chosen.
The idea is that "God so loved the "WHOLE WORLD" that he gave his Son",,,,,,God loved the whole world, both they who would believe and they who would never believe.


But just as not all go to church when they hear the bell, not all believe even if the drawing action of God to his son is so "clearly seen" in the things that are made.

But there is a reason the bell is so loud....it was designed to be!
It's not an accident that the bell is so loud that it can be heard from one end of town to the other......

just as it is no accident that the universe reflects the maker and can bring faith to the person....for it was designed to do this!


No person walks into church without being drawn there by the sound of the bell
just as no person becomes a Christian without first being drawn to the Son by the father.

[Apologette]

This is very true lets remember that the whole of the human race is drawn to the cross of Christ by God.
Yet some hear, some do not pay attention to what they hear, some listen for a time and then go after something else...poor roots and stuff.

But God knew from the beginning who would believe (naturally as God knows all things) yet God never takes away out Free Will in the effort to save the elect.


Keep up the Good work Libby!......you are an inspiration for us who cant always find the time to post here,

Bologna. If every man was drawn to Christ, why did He say this:

Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44).

John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



Some are "sheep" and follow the Shepherd, Jesus. Some are not His sheep, and will follow any Tom, **** or Harry, who comes down the false prophecy trail with an interesting story:

John 10:10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If the Father draws all, why did Jesus make the qualification that none would be saved unless the Father draws them. Doesn't take a real genius to figure that out.

[Apologette]

I dont believe you......I don't believe you still have a doubt after she has made it very very very clear ...

Thus I think you are faking being ignorant of her views.....for unknown reasons.....


you fake your ignorance poorly too....

Who do you think you are interjecting yourself here between Libby and Billyray, a faithful Christian? Just because you are obviously an Arminian and have said vulgar things here about John Calvin, doesn't give you the right to question the integrity of Christians. You won't be satisfied, will you, until you are the Last non-Mormon left here, and have the whole board to yourself, where you can set up some kind of Mormon-Christian friendship league and minimize core Christian doctrines so they can be synthesized into a Christianity compatible with Mormonism. And you have the nerve to tell others to apologize!

[Billyray]

I know that not all people who have ever lived have heard of Christ. Many people lived long before Christ. And, many, after Christ, have not had the opportunity. Although, I would say, today, most people on the earth have, at least, heard of Christ.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ...but, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Christ has a way of making himself known to people we may not be aware have even heard of him. Don't ask me how. I have no idea. I just believe it is within the realm of possibility. All things are possible with God.
If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?
All men ie mankind can never be drawn at once, and even if it were possible it can never be sustained. The next generation may reject Christ, as we now see this Nation doing right before our eyes.

[Billyray]

This is why the answer to the question Billy asks about dealing with if all men have received the drawing action to the Lord Jesus Christ?...is ..."yes"

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1 tells us that all men deep down know that there is a high power based on the creation. But they don't know any details about who the true God is nor do they know about Jesus based on the looking at the universe itself. In order to know about the true God and about Jesus we need direct revelation--which in most cases this is given to us through the scriptures. That is why people believe in many different gods because they feel a need to believe in a higher power but they don't know who that higher power is exactly.

That is why I asked you if you if you believe that ALL men have heard about Christ. It appears from your answer that you do believe that ALL men who have ever lived have heard about Christ. The problem is that nobody agrees with you on this one--not even Libby.

[Libby]

If you believe that ALL men have not even heard about Christ then why do you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ?

I tried to explain that in the very post that you quoted.

Remember that there were many who lived before Christ (even prophets) who did not, personally, know Jesus Christ.

[Apologette]

All men ie mankind can never be drawn at once, and even if it were possible it can never be sustained. The next generation may reject Christ, as we now see this Nation doing right before our eyes.

There is the "general call" of the Gospel which goes out to all men, bidding them to come to Christ to be saved.

There is the "particular call" of the Father, drawing those who will be saved to Christ.

Obviously, if the Father draws a person, He is sovereign, and not men - and those whom He draws will come.

[Libby]

Okay, this was an interesting article and the author shows that even before Christ there were some "gentiles" or people not of Israel, who were considered "saved".

"Not only people belonging to the chosen people of Israel are said to be saved, but also Gentiles. Melchizedek is a mysterious character who had no family ties with Abraham, but still was called "priest of the God Most High" (Genesis 14,18). He worshiped the same God, and Abraham paid ***hes to him. Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, finding out what God had done through the Jewish nation, accepted by faith that the God of Moses was the true god. Rahab, the pros***ute (!), risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31). This was the effective way she expressed her faith in the true God and therefore was counted among the heroes of faith. Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27) banished his pride when he understood who the true God was, proving his faith by the decision to abandon idolatry."

http://www.comparativereligion.com/neverheard.html

This whole article is very interesting and worth reading in full.

[Libby]

continued from the above article...

"None of these people of the Old Testament were saved through their merits, but through the grace of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, retroactively attributed to them. Their faith was the channel through which God granted them salvation. Today he uses the same channel for all people who accept the sacrifice of Christ as the atoning solution for their sins (Hebrews 11,39-40). Although today we have available the final revelation of God through Christ, the object of faith has always been the same - God himself, and the basis of his forgiveness was always Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Whether one lived before or after Jesus’ crucifixion, God’s forgiveness was always granted through grace and not by one’s own merits, and the proper way of accepting grace was always faith."

[Billyray]

I tried to explain that in the very post that you quoted.

Remember that there were many who lived before Christ (even prophets) who did not, personally, know Jesus Christ.
Abraham and the prophets etc. knew about the promised Messiah and their salvation was based on faith in the Messiah (Christ) the same way that the NT believers are saved.

Which brings up my question again, it you acknowledge that not every person even knows about Christ why do you believe that ALL men where drawn by the Father to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

There is the "general call" of the Gospel which goes out to all men, bidding them to come to Christ to be saved.

There is the "particular call" of the Father, drawing those who will be saved to Christ.

Obviously, if the Father draws a person, He is sovereign, and not men - and those whom He draws will come.

if God knew before the foundation of the World the color of hair and the number then he must know who will accept Him and who will reject Him. Thus God has the power and all rights to simply not have those who will reject Him to ever be born.
Thus man does not have free will, but if he does than free will thus doomed him to Hell.
It is a catch 22, this is why the argument is never settled.

[Billyray]

if God knew before the foundation of the World the color of hair and the number then he must know who will accept Him and who will reject Him. Thus God has the power and all rights to simply not have those who will reject Him to ever be born.
Thus man does not have free will, but if he does than free will thus doomed him to Hell.
It is a catch 22, this is why the argument is never settled.
Libby and I have already discussed this and perhaps you have already read our discussion but here it is again in case you missed it. Man has a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But man doesn't have the ability to keep the commandments. So if you apply the same argument that you and Libby would make for election to the commandments you would say that man doesn't have a real choice to obey the commandments.

[Apologette]

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?

[cheachea]

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?



I agree with this.

[Apologette]

I agree with this.

Thank you.

[Libby]

Abraham and the prophets etc. knew about the promised Messiah and their salvation was based on faith in the Messiah (Christ) the same way that the NT believers are saved.

Which brings up my question again, it you acknowledge that not every person even knows about Christ why do you believe that ALL men where drawn by the Father to Christ?


"Not only people belonging to the chosen people of Israel are said to be saved, but also Gentiles. Melchizedek is a mysterious character who had no family ties with Abraham, but still was called "priest of the God Most High" (Genesis 14,18). He worshiped the same God, and Abraham paid ***hes to him. Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, finding out what God had done through the Jewish nation, accepted by faith that the God of Moses was the true god. Rahab, the pros***ute (!), risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31). This was the effective way she expressed her faith in the true God and therefore was counted among the heroes of faith. Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27) banished his pride when he understood who the true God was, proving his faith by the decision to abandon idolatry."

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

[Billyray]

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.
"Rahab, the pros***ute, risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31)."

Josh. 6:25 But Rahab the pros***ute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

You don't think that she learned about the coming Messiah from the Jews who knew about the coming Messiah?


So tell me how were the OT saints saved if belief in Christ (the coming Messiah) wasn't necessary for salvation--according to you?

[Billyray]

Here's what I think: Some Christians believe in Reformed doctrines and others believe in those of Arminius. These two streams of thought have existed within the Christian Church for hundreds of years. It's not something we are going to settle here, and in fact, it's really not a salvation issue. So, instead of arguing about it, shouldn't we be about the business of this forum which is challenging Mormon doctrine and sharing the Gospel with those deceived by Joseph Smith?
I understand your concern and I agree that since this is the Mormon board we should discuss Mormonism. A couple of points that you might consider. First Mormons love to discuss this and second there are not any Mormons posting on this board at the moment. I have found that when discussing things with Mormons (when they do post on this board) that if you don't answer their questions they think you are hiding something from them. So if they want to talk about it I will discuss it with them and show them that they are wrong with this topic and with any Mormon topic. Once they realize that they are wrong they will change the subject and move on.

[Billyray]

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.
Doesn't this statement **** your whole argument that the Father draws ALL men to Christ when you admit that you believe that they haven't even heard about Christ?

[Apologette]

I understand your concern and I agree that since this is the Mormon board we should discuss Mormonism. A couple of points that you might consider. First Mormons love to discuss this and second there are not any Mormons posting on this board at the moment. I have found that when discussing things with Mormons (when they do post on this board) that if you don't answer their questions they think you are hiding something from them. So if they want to talk about it I will discuss it with them and show them that they are wrong with this topic and with any Mormon topic. Once they realize that they are wrong they will change the subject and move on.

There appears to be one Mormon posting here.

[Apologette]

The two Arminians posting here aren't really open to Sovereign Grace, have you noticed?

[Billyray]

The two Arminians posting here aren't really open to Sovereign Grace, have you noticed?
I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

[Apologette]

I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

I sort of think they don't really have a real knowledge of the Scriptures, or have trained themselves to ignore it. The Bible doubtless teaches the Sovereign Grace doctrines of irresistible grace, the particular call of God, and the perseverance of the saints - along with a limited atonement. But, I'm afraid you're not going to find much of a reception here for these biblical doctrines.

[Billyray]

I sort of think they don't really have a real knowledge of the Scriptures, or have trained themselves to ignore it. The Bible doubtless teaches the Sovereign Grace doctrines of irresistible grace, the particular call of God, and the perseverance of the saints - along with a limited atonement. But, I'm afraid you're not going to find much of a reception here for these biblical doctrines.
I agree with you very few posters here are receptive to Biblical doctrine, but there aren't many posters here to start with. However we get a few Mormons that pop in now and again--usually just for a few days and then they disappear again. I come and go as well. If there are some topics that I like to discuss I will hang around for a while. For example I posted a topic that I find interesting about animal sacrifice in the lds temples--but I have yet to have any lds respond to this. I hope some lds will respond to this one because I would like to hear what they have to say about this.

[Apologette]

I agree with you very few posters here are receptive to Biblical doctrine, but there aren't many posters here to start with. However we get a few Mormons that pop in now and again--usually just for a few days and then they disappear again. I come and go as well. If there are some topics that I like to discuss I will hang around for a while. For example I posted a topic that I find interesting about animal sacrifice in the lds temples--but I have yet to have any lds respond to this. I hope some lds will respond to this one because I would like to hear what they have to say about this.

You know, I've encountered some hyper-Arminian Christians who would agree that there will be animal sacrifices in some future Third Temple. I, of course, objected - but was told that I must have a different God than the One in the bible!

[Billyray]

You know, I've encountered some hyper-Arminian Christians who would agree that there will be animal sacrifices in some future Third Temple. I, of course, objected - but was told that I must have a different God than the One in the bible!
I believe that the Jews will rebuilt their temple and start animal sacrifices during the tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ. But from their point of view they are still under the law. But this is not the case for Mormons which is what makes this interesting to me.

[Libby]

"Rahab, the pros***ute, risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31)."

Josh. 6:25 But Rahab the pros***ute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

You don't think that she learned about the coming Messiah from the Jews who knew about the coming Messiah?


So tell me how were the OT saints saved if belief in Christ (the coming Messiah) wasn't necessary for salvation--according to you?

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Billy, God recognized both sin and faith in his people (and in some that were not his official people). Doesn't that tell something?

[Libby]

I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

This is not true, Billy. I was a strong supporter of Reformed doctrine, after I came out of Mormonism. I even supported (debated) it over on CARM for a long while. I still do see where it comes from...and to be honest, I see the holes in my own arguments here. But, I also see a quite a few in the Reformed position, as well. I learn a lot by doing this kind of back and forth. I appreciate the challenge you have put forth. It helps me see where my own thinking about all of this might be off.

And, I am always open to scriptural support.

[Billyray]

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

What was her faith in that saved her?


Billy, God recognized both sin and faith in his people (and in some that were not his official people). Doesn't that tell something?
So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

[Billyray]

And, I am always open to scriptural support.
What about all of the verses that I have given you? You simply have denied what they have said.

[Libby]

What was her faith in that saved her?

In the One True and Living God.


So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

Isn't Jesus also the One True and Living God? She may not have had a name, but she knew him all the same.

[Libby]

What about all of the verses that I have given you? You simply have denied what they have said.

No, I have not. Not at all. I have questioned the Reformed interpretation of those verses. That is NOT rejecting scripture.

[Libby]

Billy, there are millions of Arminians out there. Do you have any idea where they are coming from, scripturally?

[Billyray]

Isn't Jesus also the One True and Living God? She may not have had a name, but she knew him all the same.
You didn't answer my question. So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

[Billyray]

No, I have not. Not at all. I have questioned the Reformed interpretation of those verses. That is NOT rejecting scripture.
You have changed your position along the way so let's get your position down then we can look at the verses again. Let's start with this.

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

[cheachea]

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?

[Billyray]

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?
Probably--but if it is moved the discussion will die and there there are only two or three posters that are posting on this forum and none are lds so I would prefer that it continues to get hashed out here.

[Billyray]

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

What verse says that Rahab was saved prior to her knowledge about the Jewish God and knowledge of a coming Messiah?

[Libby]

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?

I would agree with you, if there really were a bunch of LDS discussions going on here, but since there are not, I see no harm in having it here. Plus, Billy is right that many LDS are often interested in this discussion, as well.

Btw, cheachea, thank you for the information you provided over on the Oneness forum. Much appreciated.

[Libby]

You didn't answer my question. So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

Faith in Christ is required, yes.

[Libby]

You have changed your position along the way so let's get your position down then we can look at the verses again. Let's start with this.

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

I think so, yes. Believe is the right word, in my case. Honestly, I don't know...but it seems to me that a loving and just God could do no less.

[Billyray]

Faith in Christ is required, yes.

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Your statements are conflicting. So which one is true?

[Libby]

What verse says that Rahab was saved prior to her knowledge about the Jewish God and knowledge of a coming Messiah?

I'm sure it does not say that specifically, but do you believe she knew all of the ins and outs of Jewish belief, before she was converted? The scriptures say that she "believed" because she saw how God was delivering the Israelites from the hands of their enemies.

[Libby]

Your statements are conflicting. So which one is true?

Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?

[Billyray]

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

I think so, yes. Believe is the right word, in my case. Honestly, I don't know...but it seems to me that a loving and just God could do no less.
Yet in a prior post you said

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.
The point that you were trying to make at the time was that many people were saved and didn't know a thing about Christ.

And what about all of the other people that lived during the OT who never were exposed to the Jews and the future Messiah. Where they drawn by the Father to Christ? Had they even heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?
Let's look at your statements again



Faith in Christ is required, yes.

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.


Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?
You clearly made a distinction in your post and said that salvation was NOT based in faith in the coming Messiah.

[Apologette]

I believe that the Jews will rebuilt their temple and start animal sacrifices during the tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ. But from their point of view they are still under the law. But this is not the case for Mormons which is what makes this interesting to me.

I'm more of an amil type.

[Billyray]

Libby the website that you gave earlier said that Abraham was saved and never heard about Christ. Do you believe the site that you quoted which said that Abraham never heard about Christ (the coming Messiah)?

[Libby]

Libby the website that you gave earlier said that Abraham was saved and never heard about Christ. Do you believe the site that you quoted which said that Abraham never heard about Christ (the coming Messiah)?

Of course, Abraham knew that a Messiah would, one day, come, but the point of the article (which I thought was a good one) was that salvation is always by grace through faith. Faith in the One Living God, which includes Jesus Christ, does it not? You didn't answer MY question.

[Billyray]

Of course, Abraham knew that a Messiah would, one day, come, but the point of the article (which I thought was a good one) was that salvation is always by grace through faith.


Your quoted article

". . .Surprisingly, in Hebrews 11 we can find a whole list of people who never heard about Christ but still are saved. . .This text gives many examples of people who lived before Christ and were saved without hearing about him. . ."
Then you posted

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.
Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ. Then article goes on to say that Abraham etc. "NEVER HEARD ABOUT CHRIST".

Your argument has now changed--like a lot of your arguments--when I point out that you are wrong.

[Billyray]

Faith in the One Living God, which includes Jesus Christ, does it not? You didn't answer MY question.
The One Living God includes: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Salvation comes when you place your faith in Christ to save you.

[Libby]

Then you posted

Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ. Then article goes on to say that Abraham etc. "NEVER HEARD ABOUT CHRIST".

Your argument has now changed--like a lot of your arguments--when I point out that you are wrong.

My argument hasn't changed. It is being refined. :)

Seriously, my argument hasn't changed. Anyone who knew or knows the True Living God, also knows Jesus Christ (even if they don't exactly realize it). The Israelites were faithful to the One True God, by living the LAW (or trying to), before the Messiah came.

This is, once again, getting convoluted.

What is your point exactly? That not everyone knew Christ, therefore, not everyone has been drawn?

[Libby]

Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ.

Not, that was not my argument. My argument was that people who put their faith in the One True and Living God (if they are truly doing that) may not know the NAME of Jesus Christ, but that is who they were putting their faith in, because he IS the One True Living God.

[Libby]

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?

[Billyray]

My argument hasn't changed. It is being refined. :)

Seriously, my argument hasn't changed.
Here is your post.

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Libby you have changed you argument here just like you have changed your argument in other places. Here you have clearly stated that salvation takes place prior to any knowledge about Christ and then you go on and say "which was the author's point".

[Billyray]

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?
Only those who have faith in Christ (or in the OT the future Messiah) will be saved.

You don't believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

[Billyray]

Not, that was not my argument. My argument was that people who put their faith in the One True and Living God (if they are truly doing that) may not know the NAME of Jesus Christ, but that is who they were putting their faith in, because he IS the One True Living God.

Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

[Libby]

Here is your post.

Libby you have changed you argument here just like you have changed your argument in other places. Here you have clearly stated that salvation takes place prior to any knowledge about Christ and then you go on and say "which was the author's point".

The point was, people were saved by grace, through faith, back in O.T. times, just as we are now, even before they knew the NAME, Jesus Christ. So, I'm not so sure but what that could not also be true, today (for some).

[Libby]

Only those who have faith in Christ (or in the OT the future Messiah) will be saved.

You don't believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

Why do you keep asking me that? I've made it very clear that faith in Christ is required. I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.

[Billyray]

The point was, people were saved by grace, through faith, back in O.T. times, just as we are now, even before they knew the NAME, Jesus Christ. So, I'm not so sure but what that could not also be true, today (for some).

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.


You brought up Rahab as an example of someone who was saved before she heard about the Messiah. When was she saved?

[Libby]

Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

Isn't the Holy Spirit also the Spirit of Christ?

[Billyray]

I've made it very clear that faith in Christ is required. I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.
Who in the world during the OT times knew about the "One True God"?

[Billyray]

Isn't the Holy Spirit also the Spirit of Christ?
You didn't answer my question. Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

[Libby]

Who in the world during the OT times knew about the "One True God"?

The Israelites and various ***orted others, who came in contact with them.

[Libby]

You didn't answer my question. Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

Salvation is through Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

The Israelites and various ***orted others, who came in contact with them.
And the rest of the world outside of those you mentioned did not believe in the true God, nor did they know about Christ/Messiah. Did the Father draw ALL of these people to Christ?

[Billyray]

I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.
When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

[Libby]

When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

How could it be the One True God without Christ? All I said was, that some may not know his name. The Israelites didn't know God's name for along time. Some people who believe in the One True God, may not know Christ's name....is what I meant, exactly.

[Libby]

And the rest of the world outside of those you mentioned did not believe in the true God, nor did they know about Christ/Messiah. Did the Father draw ALL of these people to Christ?

I think he must have, yes...somehow.

[Billyray]

When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

How could it be the One True God without Christ? All I said was, that some may not know his name. The Israelites didn't know God's name for along time. Some people who believe in the One True God, may not know Christ's name....is what I meant, exactly.
I don't think you understood what I was asking. If someone doesn't know about Christ--what exactly are they putting their faith in? (Hint--when you say "faith" what does that mean exactly)

[Billyray]

I think he must have, yes...somehow.
So all of these other people who have lived without any knowledge of the Only true God and the future Messiah--which means that they never heard about this true God--were drawn by the Father to the Son? And how is that exactly?

[Libby]

I don't think you understood what I was asking. If someone doesn't know about Christ--what exactly are they putting their faith in? (Hint--when you say "faith" what does that mean exactly)

I have already answered that. People like Rehab putting their faith in the God of Abraham, because she saw, first hand, that He was real and had real power. Putting her faith in the God of Abraham was also (simultaneously) putting her faith in Jesus Christ...even though she didn't know his name.

[Libby]

So all of these other people who have lived without any knowledge of the Only true God and the future Messiah--which means that they never heard about this true God--were drawn by the Father to the Son? And how is that exactly?

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?

[Billyray]

I have already answered that. People like Rehab putting their faith in the God of Abraham, because she saw, first hand, that He was real and had real power. Putting her faith in the God of Abraham was also (simultaneously) putting her faith in Jesus Christ...even though she didn't know his name.

Again you don't seem to know what I am asking you. When you say putting faith in the God of Abraham what do you mean by "faith"? For example do you mean faith = belief in a god?

[Billyray]

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?
All men are without an excuse because they know that there is a God and they know basic right and wrong and despite this they do not do what they know they should do. You have said yourself the pertaining to the OT at least that there are many people who have never even heard about the true God so this by itself shows you that the Father did not draw ALL men to Christ. Yet you still hold these conflicting beliefs.

[alanmolstad]

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?
andthe answer is:....the thing that is seen......
(Its seen clearly by the way)

And as we read the thing that is seen is the invisible nature of God.
That is the thing that is clearly seen in the things that are made.

Now I understand the phrase "the things that are made" to mean the universe.

This means that the very universe itself declares God's hand to men.
Now this fits with the verse that teaches that Jesus made all things......for here too i understand the "all things" to be also talking about the whole "universe".

So the Bible is in agreement with itself and how the universe not only is a finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that it also reflects this fact to men.

So men can learn about Jesus Christ by looking and listening to universe that we live within.


Thus when Billy asks us if all men have had a chance to hear about Jesus? the answer is "yes"

and THIS IS WHY > the Bible tells us that no person has an excuse........




But, Excuse for what? .....

ANSWER : for no person has an excuse for not believing in Jesus for the very universe itself that we live in declares to us about the Son.





And to sum it all up:

.....all this is part of God's plan!
Nothing here is an accident.
The universe does not accidentally reflect the Lord's hand.
The universe was designed by God to be able to bring all men to himself.

The universe is a way God draws all men to Himself.






and finally> all this was talked about in the Walter Martin video where he tells us that you are not sent to Hell because you never heard of Jesus.
Walter goes on to tell us that if you end up in Hell it is because you did not respond to the light from heaven you received.

The lesser light will lead you to the brighter light.

But lets keep in mind that the light is always the very same light. (Not two different lights)
The light we are talking about at all times is the Lord Jesus.
But the light can be dim at times due to our lives. (we only see a bit of the light)

And as we respond to even the dim light we see, it leads us to the brighter light.


This is why even Mormons in their temples can be reached with the true light of Christ , no matter their situation.
The light that the Mormon might be able to see dimly is still the same light I see as a Christian....
And if the Mormon responds to this light, then it will draw them out and into the brighter light of the Christian Faith.

[Apologette]

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?

My opinion is that if people do not know the name of Jesus, but sincerely call out to God for salvation, they will be saved through Jesus Christ. There is some Scripture backing this up. Otherwise we make salvation contingent upon intellectual knowledge and not a desire to be saved (which God places within the hearts of men).

[Billyray]

So men can learn about Jesus Christ by looking and listening to universe that we live within.
Without scripture (direct revelation)--when a person looks at the universe what does that person learn about Christ? Be specific.

[Billyray]

". . .And to sum it all up:

.....all this is part of God's plan!
Nothing here is an accident.
The universe does not accidentally reflect the Lord's hand.
The universe was designed by God to be able to bring all men to himself.

The universe is a way God draws all men to Himself.. . ."




Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”



Alan can you relate what you have said above with what was written by Paul in Romans 3?

[Libby]

My opinion is that if people do not know the name of Jesus, but sincerely call out to God for salvation, they will be saved through Jesus Christ. There is some Scripture backing this up. Otherwise we make salvation contingent upon intellectual knowledge and not a desire to be saved (which God places within the hearts of men).

Thank you, Apologette. I'm glad to hear that. That's exactly what I was thinking about the name...it has to be more than that, because even some people who know the name of Jesus and claim salvation through it, are possibly not saved.

[Billyray]

Thank you, Apologette. I'm glad to hear that. That's exactly what I was thinking about the name...it has to be more than that, because even some people who know the name of Jesus and claim salvation through it, are possibly not saved.
You made up a straw man argument again Libby. I never said that a person has to know the "name" of Jesus. Those in the OT knew about Jesus as the coming Messiah. It would be nice if you actually had a set of beliefs rather than changing your beliefs as the conversation develops.

Now perhaps you can answer my question. When you say "faith" in the true God, what exactly do you mean by faith? Does faith mean that you believe in a god--what exactly are you talking about?

[Billyray]

1. ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son
2. ALL men have not even heard about the true God let alone about the Son.

Libby you believe both 1 and 2 above. They are in conflict. Can you clarify your position?

[Libby]

Again you don't seem to know what I am asking you. When you say putting faith in the God of Abraham what do you mean by "faith"? For example do you mean faith = belief in a god?

Belief is the first step, yes...followed by faith and obedience.

[Libby]

1. ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son
2. ALL men have not even heard about the true God let alone about the Son.

Libby you believe both 1 and 2 above. They are in conflict. Can you clarify your position?

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.

[Billyray]

Belief is the first step, yes...followed by faith and obedience.
But I am asking you what you mean exactly when you say "faith" in the only true God. Faith = What exactly? (knowledge, belief. . .???)

[Billyray]

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.
Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

[Libby]

Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.

[Billyray]

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.


Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

[Libby]

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

[Apologette]

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

You realize that your theory makes God's Sovereign Will dependent upon men's response?

[Libby]

You realize that your theory makes God's Sovereign Will dependent upon men's response?

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will. We certainly don't save ourselves. It is a gift. But, we do have to reach out and receive it. That does not in any way make God's gift of salvation dependent on us.

[Libby]

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.

[Billyray]

Based on God's creation people know that there must be a God that created the universe. So are you saying that the creation equates to the Father drawing ALL men to the Son?

Beginning stages, yes. Everything that points to God, points to the Son and is a part of the "drawing", IMO.




Romans 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

How does your statement match up with what Paul says?

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.

If the creation is the Father drawing ALL men to the Son, can you tell me how many men have been drawn to the Son based on the creation?

Can you tell me what information you can gather about Christ looking exclusively at the creation?

[Billyray]

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will.
They are mutually exclusive beliefs. Don't you see that?

[Apologette]

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."

[Billyray]

Probably need to give this subject a rest. This could go on and on.
Actually I think we are just about getting somewhere with this Libby. I have already seen you change your position several times now--perhaps you are at least starting to solidify your beliefs a little bit here.

But I am still waiting for you to tell me what you mean when you say "faith" in the only true God. What exactly do you mean when you say "faith"? For example when you say faith in God does that mean that you believe in a god?

[alanmolstad]

I think everyone is exposed to the True God through nature and other various ways. That's why man is without excuse. That is God's "drawing" (in my mind)..beginning stages.
this is correct.....

well done!

[alanmolstad]

As Walter Martin said, God is sovereign and we have free will. We certainly don't save ourselves. It is a gift. But, we do have to reach out and receive it. That does not in any way make God's gift of salvation dependent on us.

This is correct and right on the money!


I dont know why i even bother to show up?, you got this topic nailed down.:cool:

[alanmolstad]

I don't see a problem. You don't think God can start drawing someone through nature or some other means? When God starts drawing, one has the opportunity to wake up. It may be a little at a time, as I said. He draws, you respond, he draws more, you respond. If you ignore the drawing and continue to ignore it, then it will have little or no effect on you.
This is a very good answer.

the fact that the universe reflects the Lord's hand is not an accident.

the universe was designed to do this very thing.

But men dont always do the right thing...we dont always want to see what we should ...
but this does not mean the God stopped reaching out to all men....

[Libby]

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."

I really like that. :)