Free Will

[alanmolstad]

My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."

[alanmolstad]

When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....

[Libby]

In order to understand the intended meaning of a sentence or phrase you need to understand the context of discussion. We do this all of the time in everyday life--in order to understand the meaning of a sentence you need to listen to discussion on both sides of that sentence to see how it fits into what was said. So let's look at the surrounding verses and see if we can figure out the setting that this verse comes up. Let's start with John 12

This is at the end of Jesus' public ministry and on Palm Sunday He presents Himself as the Jewish Messiah riding in on a donkey from the Mount of Olives down through the garden of gethsemane then up towards the east side of the Temple. A couple things that we see in this section of the scripture is that this is all about the Jew and their Messiah presenting himself to them and in doing so He fulfills multiple prophecies of the coming Messiah. In this chapter alone--up to this point--Jesus has raised Lazarus from the dead followed by Jesus fulfilling multiple prophecies that point to their own Messiah. Some believed--but the majority did not. Jesus up to this point was sent to the Jews as their Messiah and His message has not been sent out to the Gentiles. The Jews themselves believed that their Messiah was sent them and them alone and certainly not for the lowly Gentiles.

I understand all of that, Billy. I don't see how this supports your position, at all. The verse still reads that he (Jesus) will draw all people to himself. Yes, he is including Gentiles and the whole world. Not just Jews. What is the "difference" that you are trying to outline? "All people" means all kinds of people...yes. Why can that not also mean every individual? It can mean BOTH.

[Libby]

My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL


So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.


And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....


And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."

This is an excellent post, Alan.

[Billyray]

When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Alan I never said anything about Jesus drawing us physically. You just set up a straw man argument. In the verse in John 12 it says that Jesus WILL draw when he is lifted up. So using this verse none are drawn by Jesus until that point.

[alanmolstad]

This is an excellent post, Alan.

thanks Libby!

I may have to start a website one day on how Free Will works within God's sovereignty ....LOL

[Libby]

thanks Libby!

I may have to start a website one day on how Free Will works within God's sovereignty ....LOL

Do you have a blog? :)

[Billyray]

I understand all of that, Billy. I don't see how this supports your position, at all. The verse still reads that he (Jesus) will draw all people to himself. Yes, he is including Gentiles and the whole world. Not just Jews. What is the "difference" that you are trying to outline? "All people" means all kinds of people...yes. Why can that not also mean every individual? It can mean BOTH.
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

First off the verse says that he draws after he is lifted up which means that he didn't draw--either individuals as you and Alan believe OR certain people groups such as the Gentiles--prior to him being lifted up on the cross. Now look at the quote from the ESV study Bible that I gave you in my post and see if John 12:32 is more consistent with your position or mine.


ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

[Billyray]

This is an excellent post, Alan.
What part do you think is "excellent"? His false ***ertions or his straw man argument?

[alanmolstad]

Do you have a blog? :)

an interesting idea......

but who has ther time in the summer?

winter here in North Dakota gives a guy a bit of free time...summer is too short to not be outside

[alanmolstad]

by the way Libby.....because the topic came up here my wife and I are studying the Jewish p***over websites to learn some of the things we may have misssed

[Libby]

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

First off the verse says that he draws after he is lifted up which means that he didn't draw--either individuals as you and Alan believe OR certain people groups such as the Gentiles--prior to him being lifted up on the cross. Now look at the quote from the ESV study Bible that I gave you in my post and see if John 12:32 is more consistent with your position or mine.

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw....so, I went to my Reformation Study Bible (which it seems, has slightly different footnotes than the ones you are providing). So, you must be using a different version. ESV is a pretty standard Calvinist Bible, though.

Under 12:32 (will draw all people), this is what it says:

"The cross exerts a universal attraction, and peoples of all nationalities, Gentiles as well as Jews, will be saved through it. "All" means all kinds of people without distinction, not all members of the human race without exception."

This is exactly what I already knew, Calvinists believe, and was trying to get you to draw that line, yourself, but you don't seem to like to talk very plainly about this.

I see absolutely no good reason, why the verse should be interpreted that way. It had to be, to fit in with the Calvinist view, of course, but I see no other "real" reason to interpret it that way.

[Libby]

by the way Libby.....because the topic came up here my wife and I are studying the Jewish p***over websites to learn some of the things we may have misssed

Cool! I was looking at some Seder websites, as well, last night, because I was only 19, when I attended that Seder...and let me tell you, that was a LONG time ago! ;-)

[Billyray]

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com



I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw..

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people" according to this verse?

[Billyray]

I still didn't see what differences you were trying to draw....
I don't think you even bothered to read what I posted.


ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).
Can you tell me what the ESV Study Bible says with respect to this section of scripture?

[Billyray]

Billy, are you using a Reformation Study Bible, that was edited by R.C. Spoul, a well known Calvinist?

So, you must be using a different version. ESV is a pretty standard Calvinist Bible, though.

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV

[Libby]

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV

I wasn't talking about wording within the scriptures, themselves. I was talking about interpretations in the footnotes/study notes.

The notes I cited were from an ESV Reformation Study Bible (as I mentioned).

[Libby]

I don't think you even bothered to read what I posted.

Read every word. Perhaps, I missed something?


Can you tell me what the ESV Study Bible says with respect to this section of scripture?

This?

The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

[Billyray]

Read every word. Perhaps, I missed something?

Since you said you read every word can you tell me what points that I made and can you respond to those points?

[Billyray]

John 12:32

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. - NIV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - NASB
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. - NKJV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - NRSV
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - KJV


I wasn't talking about wording within the scriptures, themselves. I was talking about interpretations in the footnotes/study notes.

All of the verses--in the different translations--are written in English--a language that you and I both know. Certainly you can read it and tell me what it says.


And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people"?

[Libby]

All of the verses--in the different translations--are written in English--a language that you and I both know. Certainly you can read it and tell me what it says.


And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. - ESV

When WILL Jesus draw "all people"?

When he is lifted up from the earth.

I'm not sure why you are pointing this out. Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.

I'm sorry, Billy, I'm probably being slow, but I don't really understand what you are trying to point out. Could you be more specific, please?

[Billyray]

When he is lifted up from the earth.

According to this verse did Christ draw all men to Himself prior to being lifted up?

[Billyray]

I'm not sure why you are pointing this out. Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.

Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

W
I'm sorry, Billy, I'm probably being slow, but I don't really understand what you are trying to point out. Could you be more specific, please?
The exact verse that you and Alan are using to try and prove that all men are drawn to Christ--proves the opposite because according to John 12:32 Christ did not draw all people to Himself until after He went to the cross.

In context with the surrounding verses "all people" is referring to all people groups not individuals. Jesus' ministry was to the Jews while he was on the earth--and not to the Gentiles. After His death the gospel went forth to the Gentiles. All people indicated that it wasn't restricted to the Jews only--even though the unbelieving Jews still believed this.

[Billyray]

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Now let's look at the verses that follow John 12:32. If all people meant every single individual that ever lived--why follow that verse with verses 39-40 which says that God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--"therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE? If your point of view is correct the same exact people that God is drawing He is also blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts. This makes no sense at all.

If all people means all people groups this makes perfect sense in context to the rest of John 12 because during Christ's earthly ministry his message was aimed specifically to the Jews. But after the cross this spread to all the other people groups--i.e. the Gentiles. These are the "other sheep that are of this fold" that Jesus was speaking about.

[Libby]

Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.

[Libby]

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Now let's look at the verses that follow John 12:32. If all people meant every single individual that ever lived--why follow that verse with verses 39-40 which says that God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--"therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE? If your point of view is correct the same exact people that God is drawing He is also blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts. This makes no sense at all.

It does make sense, Billy, when you take into consideration all of the verses that talk about sin causing people to turn from God, sometimes, causing a "seared conscience"..and God turning unrepentant sinners over to a reprobate mind. Sin, unrepented, and ongoing is very crippling.


If all people means all people groups this makes perfect sense in context to the rest of John 12 because during Christ's earthly ministry his message was aimed specifically to the Jews. But after the cross this spread to all the other people groups--i.e. the Gentiles. These are the "other sheep that are of this fold" that Jesus was speaking about.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't even have a problem with seeing it as "people groups". All types of people will be drawn. Some will come, some will not.

[alanmolstad]

you guys are up at 1:00 in the morning posting?

[alanmolstad]

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.
very true!

the son does nothing unless he sees the father doing it...This is why when Christ says he draws all men to himself we know this is only because the son saw the father drawing all men to himself!


And it was not just on the cross that god started to draw all men, for it says that God so loved the "whole world" that he gave his Son......not just the jews...not just the future believers...but the WHOLE WORLD!!!!!!!!

But because Jesus was talking about the future cross he also talked about what he would do on the cross....for it was though this one moment on the cross that the whole plan of god came forth.

[Billyray]

. . .Is it because God was drawing people to himself, before Christ was lifted up? But, Christ has always been a part of the Truine God.


Can you point out the verse that you are referring to that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

I think you know there is no such "explicit" verse, but there are many verses that imply that He wants ALL people to be saved.
So let's summarize.

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross
2. You don't have a single verse that say that the Father draws all people to Christ
3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ

[Billyray]

It does make sense, Billy, when you take into consideration all of the verses that talk about sin causing people to turn from God, sometimes, causing a "seared conscience"..and God turning unrepentant sinners over to a reprobate mind. Sin, unrepented, and ongoing is very crippling.

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

Take a look at the following verses in Romans 3


Romans 3
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.


Now look at the verses from John 6


John 6

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


The message is pretty clear Libby but you don't want to believe it so you scrabble around trying to justify what YOU believe the scriptures should say.

[Billyray]

This is why when Christ says he draws all men to himself we know this is only because the son saw the father drawing all men to himself!

Can you list a single verse that says that God draws all men to himself?

[Libby]

you guys are up at 1:00 in the morning posting?

I'm retired. 1-1:30 am is my normal bedtime. :) I've always been a night owl, though. Even when I worked, I rarely went to bed before midnight.

[Libby]

So let's summarize.

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross

Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..


2. You don't have a single verse that say that the Father draws all people to Christ

Not explicitly, no, but there are many other verses that certainly imply this (that you seem to want to ignore).


3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

[Libby]

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

I didn't say these sinners were "believers", necessarily. Some people may never come to believe.


Take a look at the following verses in Romans 3

Now look at the verses from John 6

I agree with those verses. None will come to Christ without the Father's grace and drawing.



The message is pretty clear Libby but you don't want to believe it so you scrabble around trying to justify what YOU believe the scriptures should say.

I think that is what you are doing, Billy. You already have your belief system all worked out, so you don't see anything else that might contradict it.

[Billyray]

1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross


Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..

And all of the people who lived and died prior to this time were NOT drawn by Christ. Therefore as I said this verse does not teach that Christ draws ALL people.

[Billyray]

3. The verses in John 6 show that the Father doesn't draw all people to Christ


I agree with those verses. None will come to Christ without the Father's grace and drawing.

If you agree with those verses (John 6) then you will agree that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ.

[Billyray]

I think that is what you are doing, Billy. You already have your belief system all worked out, so you don't see anything else that might contradict it.
Actually Libby I am reading the scriptures and accepting what they say. You on the other hand are ignoring them.

[Billyray]

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
How many that the Father gives to the Son are saved and raised up at the last day?

[Libby]

Actually Libby I am reading the scriptures and accepting what they say. You on the other hand are ignoring them.

No, I am not. You, on the other hand, seem to be ignoring all scriptures that say "all", "everyone", "the world, etc.

[Libby]

how many that the father gives to the son are saved and raised up at the last day?

All............

[Billyray]

Billyray
John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Do these verses in John 12 say anything about the people being true believers at one point only to then fall away from God?

Libby
I didn't say these sinners were "believers", necessarily. Some people may never come to believe.

And do you think that the reason that some may never come to believe is because God has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart?

[Billyray]

No, I am not. You, on the other hand, seem to be ignoring all scriptures that say "all", "everyone", "the world, etc.
Sure you are ignoring what the verses actually say. Let's look at a perfect example--a verse that you have used to support your belief and it is one that has "all" in it.




1. The verse in John 12:32 doesn't teach that Christ draws all people to Himself because this doesn't take place until he goes to the cross


Huh? It explicitly says that he does draw all people to himself (or will, once he goes to the cross and is raised up)..


And all of the people who lived and died prior to this time were NOT drawn by Christ. Therefore as I said this verse does not teach that Christ draws ALL people.
Libby does the verse that you have used as a proof text--John 12:32--teach that Christ has drawn ALL men who have ever lived even those who lived and died before Jesus died on the cross?

[Billyray]

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

How many that the Father gives to the Son are saved and raised up at the last day?

All............
These are the verses that you quoted--not me--and they show that there are a select group of people that the Father gives to the Son and the Son will raise them at the last day. I am still not sure why you used these verses because they in no way support your position but disprove it.

[Libby]

And do you think that the reason that some may never come to believe is because God has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart?

Do you believe God would do that for no reason? If they had not, first, seared their own conscience?

I'm asking what you believe, Billy..

[Billyray]

Do you believe God would do that for no reason? If they had not, first, seared their own conscience?

I'm asking what you believe, Billy..
People do make a choice to either accept or reject God and they are responsible for that choice and we also know that unless God changes their heart they will never seek after Him. God does NOT draw all individuals.

As I have said in a prior post this chapter is speaking about other people groups namely the Gentiles. Christ came and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah and they rejected Him--John 12 shows us how Christ came as the Jewish Messiah and quotes several OT p***ages showing that he fulfilled prophecy and despite this and along with all of the miracles he was rejected. After the death of Christ the gospel went out to the Gentiles while at the same time there is a blindness over the Jews until right before the second coming when they will finally have their eyes opened and accept Christ as their Messiah.

[Libby]

People do make a choice to either accept or reject God and they are responsible for that choice and we also know that unless God changes their heart they will never seek after Him. God does NOT draw all individuals.

As I have said in a prior post this chapter is speaking about other people groups namely the Gentiles. Christ came and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah and they rejected Him--John 12 shows us how Christ came as the Jewish Messiah and quotes several OT p***ages showing that he fulfilled prophecy and despite this and along with all of the miracles he was rejected. After the death of Christ the gospel went out to the Gentiles while at the same time there is a blindness over the Jews until right before the second coming when they will finally have their eyes opened and accept Christ as their Messiah.

But, not all of the Jews rejected him. Many believed.

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?

[Libby]

God does NOT draw all individuals.

I know that you believe this. I cannot justify it, not from the Bible and not from any sense of WHO God is.

[Billyray]

But, not all of the Jews rejected him. Many believed.

Of course many believed. During the OT there were true believers in the coming Messiah and this included those who lived during the time of Christ. The early members of the Church after the death of Christ were Jews.

[Billyray]

I know that you believe this. I cannot justify it, not from the Bible and not from any sense of WHO God is.
I have gone over and over with you the verses that clearly teach this. The problem is that you can't accept what it teaches--at least not yet. Perhaps you will someday see it.

[Billyray]

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,



ESV Study Bible

11:25 Paul discloses a mystery to the Gentiles to prevent them from being proud. The word “mystery” does not necessarily refer to something puzzling or difficult to grasp, but to something that was previously hidden and is now revealed. The mystery here has three elements: (1) at this time in salvation history the majority of Israel has been hardened; (2) during this same time the full number of Gentiles is being saved; and (3) God will do a new work in the future in which he will save all “Israel” (v. 26)



BK Commentary
Romans 11
Israel's corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery. In Scripture a mystery is not a truth difficult to understand, but a truth previously unrevealed (and therefore unknown) which is now revealed and publicly proclaimed (cf. Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; at Matt. 13:10- 16, see the chart that lists NT mysteries). Paul wanted to make sure his Gentile readers knew about the mystery concerning Israel in God's sovereign choice. God's purpose was so that you may not be conceited (lit., "wise in yourselves"). God's sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God. . .After "the fullness of the Gentiles" (11:25, kjv) the partial hardening of Israel will be removed and all Israel will be saved, that is, "delivered" (in the OT "saved" often means "delivered") from the terrible Tribulation by the Messiah, the Deliverer. To confirm this, Paul quoted from Isaiah 59:20- 21 and 27:9. The statement, "All Israel will be saved" does not mean that every Jew living at Christ's return will be regenerated. Many of them will not be saved, as seen by the fact that the judgment of Israel, to follow soon after the Lord's return, will include the removal of Jewish rebels (Ezek. 20:34- 38). Following this judgment God will then remove godlessness and sins from the nation as He establishes His New Covenant with regenerate Israel (cf. Jer. 31:33- 34)"

[Billyray]

Where is this thing about the Jews not accepting until right before the second coming?
http://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html

". . .In this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation. Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Paul speaks of the “full inclusion” of Israel in the future (Romans 11:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will fulfill Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). God’s larger redemptive plan involves both Jews and Gentiles. When Paul says Israel will be “saved,” he means their deliverance to this physical inheritance as integral to God’s ultimate plan (Romans 11:30–36).

So how will “all Israel be saved” and restored in the land? The details of this deliverance are filled out in p***ages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs during the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8 and 11:1–12. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

The tribulation period will feature unprecedented apostasy in Israel for 3½ years, with a “second exodus” arranged by God to protect the faithful remnant from Satan (Revelation 11—12) just as in the first Exodus. Isaiah predicted this as well: “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). The gospel will be preached to all the world, and Christ will return to meet the faithful remnant (Revelation 14) and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). The apostates left in Jerusalem will be purged, and the remnant set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance: Zion will rule over all the nations defeated under the banner of Messiah the King, and Israel’s “salvation” is the wholeness and peace she will enjoy during the millennial reign of Christ. . ."

[alanmolstad]

I'm retired. 1-1:30 am is my normal bedtime. :) I've always been a night owl, though. Even when I worked, I rarely went to bed before midnight.

well on a normal day i get home around 7:30 to 8:00...and for the next few hours no one seems to be on the forum ever....But the moment I go to sleep, "bingo!"....everyone is back on-line and posting away....

right now there are so many new posts that I just dont have the energy to go look at them all...

[alanmolstad]

People always have the free Will to believe or not believe....its up to them to decide that stuff.

And we are not so controlled that we lose our Free Will.....consider even Pharaoh at the time of Moses always had Free Will....even when he was all part of god's plan for the Jews, he still always had free Will..

We are the same....We always have Free Will too...no matter the part we play in God's plans, we still keep our Free Will at all times.

[Billyray]

People always have the free Will to believe or not believe....its up to them to decide that stuff.

People have the invitation to come to Christ and anyone who places their faith in Him will be saved. The problem is with man and his sinful nature--he doesn't want anything to do with God. Read again what Paul says in Romans 3

Romans 3
09 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are ALL under the power of sin.
10 As it is written:“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

[alanmolstad]

Even Pharaoh had Free Will at all times.........

[alanmolstad]

and trust me...if even pharaoh had Free Will, then you and I always have our Free Will too.....

[alanmolstad]

Free Will is not just the ability to chose...Its not just that because animals have the ability to make decisions.

But Free Will is being "free"
Free from interference.....
Free to make up your own mind.

This makes us able to Love and return other's Love .
it also means that we are responsible for our decisions , because we made them free of anyone's interference.

This goes back to the Lord's statement that the people of the city "would not" come to him...
Notice jesus did not say the people "could not" come to him.


If the people lacked Free Will, then Jesus was in error , as the people were locked into a behavior and were unable to decide things for themselves....
A lack of Free Will means someone else is pulling the strings....

But there are no strings......just us.

[Billyray]

Even Pharaoh had Free Will at all times.........
Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Tell me what you think these verses are saying?

[Libby]

http://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html

". . .In this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation. Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Paul speaks of the “full inclusion” of Israel in the future (Romans 11:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will fulfill Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). God’s larger redemptive plan involves both Jews and Gentiles. When Paul says Israel will be “saved,” he means their deliverance to this physical inheritance as integral to God’s ultimate plan (Romans 11:30–36).

So how will “all Israel be saved” and restored in the land? The details of this deliverance are filled out in p***ages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs during the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8 and 11:1–12. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

The tribulation period will feature unprecedented apostasy in Israel for 3½ years, with a “second exodus” arranged by God to protect the faithful remnant from Satan (Revelation 11—12) just as in the first Exodus. Isaiah predicted this as well: “In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). The gospel will be preached to all the world, and Christ will return to meet the faithful remnant (Revelation 14) and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). The apostates left in Jerusalem will be purged, and the remnant set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance: Zion will rule over all the nations defeated under the banner of Messiah the King, and Israel’s “salvation” is the wholeness and peace she will enjoy during the millennial reign of Christ. . ."

Thanks, Billy....that's interesting. Like I said, I know almost nothing about end times.

[Billyray]

Free Will is not just the ability to chose...Its not just that because animals have the ability to make decisions.

But Free Will is being "free"
Free from interference.....
Free to make up your own mind.

Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelek

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar,
2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.”
4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation?
5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[Libby]

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.

[Libby]

God gives a command. We are free to disobey. There will be consequences.

[alanmolstad]

Thanks, Billy....that's interesting. Like I said, I know almost nothing about end times.

Well it goes like this...

1st there is a warm-up band (Beast and Anti-Christ).....then there is big battle where people still fight with horses......
and then at the end....we are hoping for some great fireworks when suddenly the sky just rolls up and that's it....and about a few billion people all turn to their wives and say, "Well that sucked"

[Libby]

I have gone over and over with you the verses that clearly teach this. The problem is that you can't accept what it teaches--at least not yet. Perhaps you will someday see it.

I used to see it your way, Billy. It just doesn't make sense to me, that way. I really started falling away, because of it. Is that one of those "hard sayings" that the Bible talks about? I hope not.

[alanmolstad]

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.

its part of the deal to be sure.

I have the ability to do good,,,,and at times i do good.
but the odd part of Free Will is that it allows you to come up with reasons why doing bad is also good......

[Libby]

Well it goes like this...

1st there is a warm-up band (Beast and Anti-Christ).....then there is big battle where people still fight with horses......
and then at the end....we are hoping for some great fireworks when suddenly the sky just rolls up and that's it....and about a few billion people all turn to their wives and say, "Well that sucked"


lol....Aye!! ;)

[Libby]

its part of the deal to be sure.

I have the ability to do good,,,,and at times i do good.
but the odd part of Free Will is that it allows you to come up with reasons why doing bad is also good......

Yes, which is why we need to remember to ask for Christ's guidance at all times. :)

[alanmolstad]

lol....Aye!! ;)
I had a bunch of friends when I was newly married, and they had went to a lot of End Times cl***, and they would sit around and tell me "how it will go"

i listened, and never believed them for a moment.

i have yet to find any End Times teacher that i felt was worth the time to listen to.
But the very worst guys are the teachers that try to do "bible Math"...they are a total joke.

[alanmolstad]

Yes, which is why we need to remember to ask for Christ's guidance at all times. :)

yes.....I dont think it was an accident that Jesus picked out a little kid to show us what we should act like in the Kingdom......
The kid Im sure did not want Jesus putting him in the middle of a bunch of men, but the child simply trusted Jesus and did what he was told.....and Jesus pointed to this and its kinda like what we are to be like in our daily walk......
"trusting, but not too sure"

we are to trust the person of Christ,,,,and even if we dont really understand Him at all......

[Libby]

we are to trust the person of Christ,,,,and even if we dont really understand Him at all......

Yes...........

[Billyray]

Having free will doesn't mean we are free from the consequences of our actions.
I wasn't asking about "consequences of our actions". I was speaking about the action itself.

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[Libby]

Not without he and his whole family dying.

[alanmolstad]

god is able to do work in our lives without needing to take away our free will.....

[alanmolstad]

if God needed to take away my Free Will just to carry out His plans for me in my life, He would not be much of a god.....

And would simply be not worth worshiping....

[Billyray]

I used to see it your way, Billy. It just doesn't make sense to me, that way. I really started falling away, because of it. Is that one of those "hard sayings" that the Bible talks about? I hope not.
The Bible has a lot of things that maybe hard to understand from out perspective and because of this some people reject parts of the Bible or the entire Bible outright because it doesn't line up with what they think God should do.

[Billyray]

if God needed to take away my Free Will just to carry out His plans for me in my life, He would not be much of a god.....

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

[Libby]

The Bible has a lot of things that maybe hard to understand from out perspective and because of this some people reject parts of the Bible or the entire Bible outright because it doesn't line up with what they think God should do.

Yeah, that's true.

[Christian]

check out 3:30 of the video for your answers...



So you can't answer on your own, but have to go to a third-rate preacher instead. . .

I checked out 3:30 of the video. He DID NOT RESPOND to the last half of the sentence, but gave speculative reasoning to disbelieve what the first half said.

He left out the part that says: " for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them. . ." He CLAIMED they COULD perceive, but CHOSE NOT TO. Since when CAN you believe something that is foolishness to you and that you do not understand?

Sorry but your own video shows your pathetic inability to make your point.

In Jesus,
morefish

[Christian]

Arminianism: Your name is penciled in the Book of Life!

But ONLY until you mess up and sin. . .THEN it is erased with the erasure end of the pencil. . .

According to the Arminians anyway. . .

IN the Name of J

[Libby]

But ONLY until you mess up and sin. . .THEN it is erased with the erasure end of the pencil. . .

According to the Arminians anyway. . .

IN the Name of J

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

I think this is true for most Christian teachings. In that sense, there is no security. Same thing in Mormonism, actually.

[RealFakeHair]

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

I think this is true for most Christian teachings. In that sense, there is no security. Same thing in Mormonism, actually.

Logic says, if we had to endure to the end as the same as anyone who was not washed in the Blood of the Lamb, then why bother getting washed? Logic, aint it wonderful

[Libby]

Huh? :)

................

[Billyray]

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.

Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

[Libby]

Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

Well, I had to look it up, but I did know it was in there.

Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

[alanmolstad]

Libby...Im working out of town, so send me a PM if you run into something that you think I would find interesting....or funny ;)

[Libby]

Also....

2 Timothy 2:12

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

[Libby]

Libby...Im working out of town, so send me a PM if you run into something that you think I would find interesting....or funny ;)

Will do. :)

[disciple]

Also....

2 Timothy 2:12

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

If we could lose our salvation, we would. Let's not forget it is Jesus who bought us and keeps us.


“Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.” Jude 24-25

[Libby]

Let's not forget it is Jesus who bought us and keeps us.

Amen, disciple.

[Billyray]

Actually, I have heard that complaint about Calvinism, moreso. If you do not "endure to the end" (in other words, if you fall away), you were never saved to begin with.


Which is based on a verse in the Bible. Can you figure out which one?

Well, I had to look it up, but I did know it was in there.

Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
I was thinking about the verse in 1 John 2:19

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

[alanmolstad]

Amen, disciple.

[Libby]

I was thinking about the verse in 1 John 2:19

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Yes, that one too. It could also infer or reflect a Calvinist view of election.

The verses about "enduring to the end" are often used by LDS.

[alanmolstad]

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

girls get raped all the time...God does not interfere....

its a simple fact....

[Billyray]

Say a young women was walking down the street late at night and came across some bad characters that had in their heart to take advantage of her. If she prayed and asked God for protection would God answer her prayer OR would he simply ignore it to avoid interfering with these bad guy's free will?

girls get raped all the time...God does not interfere....

its a simple fact....
So your position would be that God does not answer prayer because by doing so it would interfere with another person's free will?

[Billyray]

Yes, that one too. It could also infer or reflect a Calvinist view of election.

The verses about "enduring to the end" are often used by LDS.
Here is a snippet from gotquestion.org on perseverance of the Saints




Question: "Perseverance of the Saints - is it biblical?"

". . . The simplest explanation of this doctrine is the saying: “Once saved, always saved.” The Bible teaches that those who are born again will continue trusting in Christ forever. God, by His own power through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, keeps or preserves the believer forever. This wonderful truth is seen in Ephesians 1:13-14, where we see that believers are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession, to the praise of His glory.” When we are born again, we receive the promised indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that is God’s guarantee that He who began a good work in us will complete it (Philippians 1:6). In order for us to lose our salvation after receiving the promised Holy Spirit, God would have to break His promise or renege on His “guarantee,” which He cannot do. Therefore, the believer is eternally secure because God is eternally faithful.

The understanding of this doctrine really comes from understanding the unique and special love that God has for His children. Romans 8:28-39 tells us that 1) no one can bring a charge against God’s elect; 2) nothing can separate the elect from the love of Christ; 3) God makes everything work together for the good of the elect; and 4) all whom God saves will be glorified. God loves His children (the elect) so much that nothing can separate them from Him. Of course this same truth is seen in many other p***ages of Scripture as well. In John 10:27-30, Jesus says, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again, in John 6:37-47, we see Jesus stating that everyone that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him and He will raise all of them up at the last day.

Another evidence from Scripture of the eternal security of a believer is found in John 5:24, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has p***ed out of death into life.” Notice that eternal life is not something we get in the future but is something that we have once we believe. By its very nature, eternal life must last forever, or it could not be eternal. This p***age says that, if we believe the gospel, we have eternal life and will not come into judgment; therefore, it can be said we are eternally secure.

There is really very little scriptural basis that can be used to argue against the eternal security of the believer. While there are a few verses that, if not considered in their context, might give the impression that one could “fall from grace” or lose his salvation, when these verses are carefully considered in context it is clear that is not the case. Many people know someone who at one time expressed faith in Christ and who might have appeared to be a genuine Christian who later departed from the faith and now wants to have nothing to do with Christ or His church. These people might even deny the very existence of God. For those who do not want to accept what the Bible says about the security of the believer, these types of people are proof that the doctrine of eternal security cannot be right. However, the Bible indicates otherwise, and it teaches that people such as those who profess Christ as Savior at one time only to later walk away and deny Christ were never truly saved in the first place. For example, 1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out from us, in order that it might be made manifest that they all are not truly of us." The Bible is also clear that not everyone who professes to be a Christian truly is. Jesus Himself says that not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-22). Rather than proving we can lose our salvation, those people who profess Christ and fall away simply reinforces the importance of testing our salvation to make sure we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) and making our calling and election sure by continually examining our lives to make sure we are growing in godliness (2 Peter 1:10). . ."


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html#ixzz33vTzdvAi

[Libby]

Thanks, Billy....yes, I'm familiar with all of that.

I'm not sure about perseverance of the saints (the P in TULIP). Again, it seems to make God responsible for whether or not we fall away. I agree some of those verses do say that Christ keeps us, through the Holy Spirit, but we can turn from that and lose sight, for a time, and come back. Doesn't that show that we have some responsibility in "persevering"? And, in "examining" ourselves, to make sure we are still in the faith?

[alanmolstad]

So your position would be that God does not answer prayer because by doing so it would interfere with another person's free will?

im saying that no matter how hard you pray and ask God to take away the Free Will of bad people the answer to your prayer will always be...."no"

[alanmolstad]

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

[Billyray]

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...
So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?

[RealFakeHair]

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh

[Billyray]

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh
God did not allow Abimelek to touch Sarah

Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelek

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar,
2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.”
4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation?
5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

Do you think that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since you believe that we all have the free will to do anything that we want?

[alanmolstad]

Wrong, remember God harden the heart of Pharaoh
Nope...you better check the story out .....God never needed to take away the free will of anyone.......even Pharaoh.

If your god needs to do that to people just to be able to perform his will in our lives he would not be a type of god worth worshiping.....



for more information, I found this for you to study
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1205

[alanmolstad]

God did not allow Abimelek to touch Sarah
oh yes....But remember the guy always had free will and this is the reason God sent the guy a dream and warned him that if he slept with the lady he would die....

so this is the lesson we learn here...that God did not have to take away the guy's free will to yet work in his life....
The guy always had free will...and it was a dream that God sent that warned him.....and because he was warned he acted correctly....all according to his free will

[alanmolstad]

So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?You just make up the most crazy **** out of thin air.......its getting to the point that none of the posts by Billy are worth the time to read....

[Billyray]

oh yes....But remember the guy always had free will and this is the reason God sent the guy a dream and warned him that if he slept with the lady he would die....

so this is the lesson we learn here...that God did not have to take away the guy's free will to yet work in his life....
The guy always had free will...and it was a dream that God sent that warned him.....and because he was warned he acted correctly....all according to his free will
So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

[Libby]

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?

He could have, but then he would have died. Why would God warn him or bother to give a penalty, if Abimelek was completely "unable" to touch Sarah?

Same with Pharaoh. His heart was hardened only after he sinned numerous times against The Lord. Constant unrepentant sin will create a hard heart.

[Billyray]

So God has no control on what happens here on earth--He is simply a spectator in order to maintain man's free will. Would you agree with that?

You just make up the most crazy **** out of thin air.......its getting to the point that none of the posts by Billy are worth the time to read....
From what you have said about free will this is the only conclusion one could make. If God takes an active role in shaping future events this would interfere with man's free will and you have said that God would never interfere with man's free will. So your position must be that God has no control on what happens on earth because intervention in our actions would limit our free will? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree can you tell me why?

[alanmolstad]

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?That was the reason God sent him the dream....

The dream, and the warning prove my point....

[Billyray]

He could have, but then he would have died.
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.

But what does the verse say? Did God keep him from touching her?

[Libby]

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.

But what does the verse say? Did God keep him from touching her?

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

Why did God bother giving a penalty, Billy?

[Billyray]

That was the reason God sent him the dream....

The dream, and the warning prove my point....

So your opinion is that Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to since he had "free will" to do so. Agree?
So Abimelek could have touched Sarah if he wanted to because he has complete free will. Agree?

[alanmolstad]

From what you have said about free will this is the only conclusion one could make. If God takes an active role in shaping future events this would interfere with man's free will and you have said that God would never interfere with man's free will. So your position must be that God has no control on what happens on earth because intervention in our actions would limit our free will? Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree can you tell me why?Your views are not worth reading anymore....
You ***ign people things you want them to say in order to set you up with a strong counter arguement....

But the problem is that no one thinks the way you wish they would.....so your great arguement that you were all set to make just flops limp in the wind.......


Billy, I have posted enough on this one topic alone to fill a book on "How Free Will works WITH god's sovereignty"


Why dont you ask me about the things I have said, rather than building a straw-man with what you wished I would have said....

[Billyray]

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

Why did God bother giving a penalty, Billy?
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

What was the penalty for according to verse 7?

[Billyray]

Your views are not worth reading anymore....
You ***ign people things you want them to say in order to set you up with a strong counter arguement....

But the problem is that no one thinks the way you wish they would.....so your great arguement that you were all set to make just flops limp in the wind.......


Billy, I have posted enough on this one topic alone to fill a book on "How Free Will works WITH god's sovereignty"


Why dont you ask me about the things I have said, rather than building a straw-man with what you wished I would have said....
Your views on free will is that man can do anything he wants whenever he wants. If this is the case then who is in control of this world? Man or God?

[alanmolstad]

And your answer to my question is what?
The reason God sent the dream was to "warn" the guy .....the reason for the warning is that the guy was in danger of doing something wrong.....the reason for this is that the guy always has his free will.....

So because the guy has free will he makes a decision to bring the lady into his house.
God wants to warn the guy, so God sends him a dream to warn him that he will die if he sleeps with the lady.

So the guy never, ever,ever for even the slightest second had his free will taken away from him.....But God still was able to perform his will for the guy no matter.

Thats what you clearly are clue-free about in this topic...
The fact that God is not so weak that he has to handcuff people and take away their Free Will just to be able to do things according to His will in their lives.

God is NOT that weak!
God does not need to take away our Free Will just to be able to performs works in our lives....


I teach that Man has Free Will "and" God is sovereign.

You feel in need of replacing the word "and" with the word "or".......but this results in a weak god that is not worth worshiping and is a joke compared to the God I worship and serve.

[Billyray]

Yes, in that God knew he would be obedient.

You use "foreknowledge" as a defense a lot but the way you use it doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you believe that God's foreknowledge is different than what actually happens? Perhaps you can explain to me how you see foreknowledge?

[Billyray]

The reason God sent the dream was to "warn" the guy .....the reason for the warning is that the guy was in danger of doing something wrong.....the reason for this is that the guy always has his free will.....

So because the guy has free will he makes a decision.
God wants to warn the guy, so God sends him a dream to warn him that he will die if he sleeps with the lady.

So the guy never, ever,ever for even the slightest second had his free will taken away from him.....But God still was able to perform his will for the guy no matter.

Thats what you clearly are clue-free about in this topic...
The fact that God is not so weak that he has to handcuff people and take away their Free Will just to be able to do things according to His will in their lives.

God is NOT that weak!
God does not need to take away our Free Will just to be able to performs works in our lives....


I teach that Man has Free Will "and" God is sovereign.

You feel in need of replacing the word "and" with the word "or".......but this results in a weak god that is not worth worshiping and is a joke compared to the God I worship and serve.
And you believe that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since he has free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Right?

BTW if God shapes human behavior to the outcome that he wants it to be are you still calling this free will?

[alanmolstad]

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”
?

see the "if"?

The if is what I am talking about.....the "if" means the guy could yet do the wrong thing and end up in a lot of trouble....

the "if" is the reason God sent the dream to warn him.....

[alanmolstad]

And you believe that Abimelek could have touched Sarah since he has free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Right?God seemed to think so....LOL;)

God sent the warning to let the guy know that "if' he slept with the lady he would die......

So he had to decide what he believe would happen.....and he decided to believe the dream and the warning....and thus he lived


He never had his free will taken from him, even for a second!

[alanmolstad]

Your views on free will is that man can do anything he wants whenever he wants. If this is the case then who is in control of this world? Man or God?

No...my view is and has always been what the Bible teaches...

That man has Free Will......AND.....God is sovereign

[Billyray]

see the "if"?

The if is what I am talking about.....the "if" means the guy could yet do the wrong thing and end up in a lot of trouble....

the "if" is the reason God sent the dream to warn him.....
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

The penalty was for not returning her to Abraham. This is AFTER God prevented him from touching her.

[Billyray]

No...my view is and has always been what the Bible teaches...

That man has Free Will......AND.....God is sovereign
The Bible doesn't teach that man has free will but it does teach that God is sovereign so you are half right. Perhaps you will eventually get it entirely correct some day. What you are saying in your quote above is: That man is sovereign ......AND.....God is sovereign. This statement is in conflict and can't be true. But you don't seem to see it. At least yet.

[Billyray]

God seemed to think so....LOL;)


God didn't seem to think so that is why he had to prevent him from touching her. Read the verse again Alan.

[Billyray]

Alan if you believe in free will then you should have no trouble giving me a yes or no answer to the following question.

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

[alanmolstad]

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

The penalty was for not returning her to Abraham. This is AFTER God prevented him from touching her.I think we all know why he had her in his house....LOL

[alanmolstad]

What you are saying in your quote above is:.........there you go again......you need invent things for people to say because you cant handle the real things people like me say that prove you wrong.....:)

[alanmolstad]

Alan if you believe in free will then you should have no trouble giving me a yes or no answer to the following question.

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"


If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.

[Billyray]

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"


If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.
Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

[Billyray]

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"

If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.
Like it says in John 12?

John 12
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

[Libby]

6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.
7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”

What was the penalty for according to verse 7?

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah. He also prevented any of his other wives from becoming pregnant and would not change this until King Abimelek gave Sarah back to Abraham and made amends.

I don't deny that God sometimes "acts" sovereignly. Really, my main point, throughout this thread, has been in regards to salvation. The idea of God picking and choosing for salvation, rather than having us freely respond to his drawing.

We, obviously, do not have complete and unfettered free will (that is difficult to defend, Biblically), which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.

[alanmolstad]

there is nothing to stop God from doing work in our lives...
God is not so weak that he needs to strip man of his free will before God can carry out his will in our lives....

[alanmolstad]

Does man have the free will to do anything that he wants--anytime that he wants?

lets do a test....

Right now i sitting in a chair....but in a moment I believe I will "want" to put a foot on the floor..

Do I have the Free Will that will allow me to put my foot on the floor?..."tap" ...looks like I do!

Case-Closed!

[alanmolstad]

which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.

I dont know why its so hard for poor Billy to understand...God also has free will,,,God does what he wants....God does not need to rob us of our Free Will just to perform some act in our lives...

What a weak god it would be to worship if to do something in our lives our god had to first strip us of our free will.....

I would NEVER worship such a false god!

[alanmolstad]

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah.
Yes!

Just as I get my kids to clean their rooms.
I dont take away their free will, but I do give them a "warning".......and at that point they face a choice as to how they will respond.

All this works hand in hand with the concept of man's free will and God's sovereignty

[alanmolstad]

what the bible teaches is that man has free will....this is why Jesus wept over a city because the people "would not" come to him.....

"would not" tells us that the people had the necessary Free Will that would have allowed them to come to Christ....but it also tells us that the people had decided on their own to not come to him.

"would not" has a different meaning than "could not"





If the people had no free will, then Christ's words would have been "could not" for the people had no ability to make up their own minds and come to Christ on their own.
would not = Free Will

could not = no free will

[RealFakeHair]

would not = Free Will

could not = no free will

Would not-FreeWill could not-free will.

Will you two call it tie?

[Libby]

Would not-FreeWill could not-free will.

Will you two call it tie?

What fun would that be? :)

[RealFakeHair]

What fun would that be? :)

Maybe one has the free will to do it, but the other one doesn't, but which is which?

[Billyray]

Okay, I went and read all of Genesis 20, to get it all in context. You are right, Billy, that God did stop Abimelek from touching Sarah. He also prevented any of his other wives from becoming pregnant and would not change this until King Abimelek gave Sarah back to Abraham and made amends.

I don't deny that God sometimes "acts" sovereignly. Really, my main point, throughout this thread, has been in regards to salvation. The idea of God picking and choosing for salvation, rather than having us freely respond to his drawing.

We, obviously, do not have complete and unfettered free will (that is difficult to defend, Biblically), which is why, I think, Alan keeps saying (as did Walter Martin) that we have free will, but God is also sovereign. He does as he pleases. He is also omniscient, which means he works in much wider parameters than we do.
If man had free will then he could do anything he wanted whenever he wanted to to it. I have asked Alan if he agrees or disagrees with this and he won't give me a straight answer. If he truly believed in free will then he would have no problem saying that man did indeed have the free will to do want he wanted to do whenever he wanted to do it--but he won't give me an answer.

[alanmolstad]

remember the example I gave of a p***enger on a great ship......

The freedom the p***enger enjoys come forth out of the command of the Skipper over his ship....
Before the p***enger can enjoy such freedoms, the Skipper has to be in total control of the ship at all times.


This is also how human Free Will works within the Sovereignty of God over His creation....

[Libby]

If man had free will then he could do anything he wanted whenever he wanted to to it. I have asked Alan if he agrees or disagrees with this and he won't give me a straight answer. If he truly believed in free will then he would have no problem saying that man did indeed have the free will to do want he wanted to do whenever he wanted to do it--but he won't give me an answer.

I think he has given you an answer. He, probably, just hasn't justified it, enough, to your liking.

It seems like we do have free will, for the most part. We are, actually, free to do most anything we want, by all appearances. That doesn't mean that God doesn't intervene in our lives, at times, to answer prayers and arrange things, according to His will.

[Libby]

remember the example I gave of a p***enger on a great ship......

The freedom the p***enger enjoys come forth out of the command of the Skipper over his ship....
Before the p***enger can enjoy such freedoms, the Skipper has to be in total control of the ship at all times.


This is also how human Free Will works within the Sovereignty of God over His creation....

Yes, I like that example. That's a good one.

[John T]

Yes, I like that example. That's a good one.

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".

[alanmolstad]

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".
well said!

[Libby]

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

Just because we limited humans are unable to reconcile them, that does not mean that either are exclusively true, or exclusively false. Both exist simultaneously in Scripture, and IMHO it is the weak insecure and immature of BOTH camps who want to go to war with the "other side".

Yes, you are probably right about that, John. I keep saying I need to lay this down...and then come back here and get caught up in it, again. Somehow, the two are compatible...only God knows.

[Billyray]

I think he has given you an answer.
So Alan's position is that "man can do anything he wants whenever he wants to"

[Billyray]

The fact is that BOTH free will and the sovereignty of God are taught in the Bible; therefore they are friends, not enemies.

We certainly make choices and we are responsible for those choices. But if you believe that a person has complete free will then you are making man sovereign NOT God. Out of curiosity what verses are you using that says that man has complete free will to do whatever he wants whenever he wants?

[Libby]

So Alan's position is that "man can do anything he wants whenever he wants to"

I think his position is a little more refined and defined than that, Billy.

[Billyray]

I think his position is a little more refined and defined than that, Billy.

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...

Then you are saying that Alan doesn't believe in free will?

[Libby]

Then you are saying that Alan doesn't believe in free will?

Really?? Not sure how you got that out of what I said. I was thinking of his example of people on a ship.

Billy, what exactly is the difference, in your mind, between "free will" and "making choices"?

I know that we don't have unfettered free will. We are very much affected by our sin nature, for one thing....and God is always sovereign.

[Billyray]

Really?? Not sure how you got that out of what I said. I was thinking of his example of people on a ship.

Billy, what exactly is the difference, in your mind, between "free will" and "making choices"?

I know that we don't have unfettered free will. We are very much affected by our sin nature, for one thing....and God is always sovereign.
This topic has always been about how you define free will. Here is the OP of this thread.


Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.
Here is the dictionary definition again that I gave in post #3 of this thread.

Merriam Webster Dictionary

FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

If you use the standard dictionary definition then free will means that a person can choose whatever he wants whenever he want to AND the choices are FREE from divine intervention. This is different than choice because we all make choices but our choices are influenced by God.

[Libby]

This topic has always been about how you define free will. Here is the OP of this thread.


Here is the dictionary definition again that I gave in post #3 of this thread.


If you use the standard dictionary definition then free will means that a person can choose whatever he wants whenever he want to AND the choices are FREE from divine intervention. This is different than choice because we all make choices but our choices are influenced by God.

I thought the Calvinist view was that we are all more influenced by our "nature"..? If we are non-believers, we are subject to our sin nature. If we are believers, we are more "free" from our sin nature (although, not totally) but free enough to choose God and to be more aware of our sin.

[Billyray]

I thought the Calvinist view was that we are all more influenced by our "nature"..? If we are non-believers, we are subject to our sin nature. If we are believers, we are more "free" from our sin nature (although, not totally) but free enough to choose God and to be more aware of our sin.
Because of our sin nature we are dead in sins and tresp***es and are unable to place our faith in Christ unless God intervenes. This is a perfect example of what we are talking about on this thread because it shows that man is able to make a choice but that choice is influenced by our sin nature. We can make a choice but we do not have the ability (free will) to choose Christ unless God intervenes to change us first.

[Billyray]

If we are believers, we are more "free" from our sin nature (although, not totally) but free enough to choose God and to be more aware of our sin.
I think that you have hit the nail on the head with your statement above showing the difference between the Reformed position verses the Arminian position. Your position (Arminian) is that a person changes his sin nature on his own which then allows that person to choose God. The Reformed position is that God must first change us which then allows us to come to Christ and place our faith in Him.

[Libby]

I think that you have hit the nail on the head with your statement above showing the difference between the Reformed position verses the Arminian position. Your position (Arminian) is that a person changes his sin nature on his own which then allows that person to choose God. The Reformed position is that God must first change us which then allows us to come to Christ and place our faith in Him.

I don't think that's the Arminian position on coming to faith in Christ. They believe God draws us, first (which is Biblical) and then the person responds. If the person responds in the positive, to the drawing, then God will continue to draw that person.

I don't, personally, believe that we come to God on our own. God draws us. I think Alan believes that, as well.

We are not "free" to choose God, until he draws us.

[Billyray]

I don't think that's the Arminian position on coming to faith in Christ. They believe God draws us, first (which is Biblical) and then the person responds. If the person responds in the positive, to the drawing, then God will continue to draw that person.

I don't, personally, believe that we come to God on our own. God draws us. I think Alan believes that, as well.

We are not "free" to choose God, until he draws us.

If we are believers, we are more "free" from our sin nature (although, not totally) but free enough to choose God and to be more aware of our sin.
In your statement you said that a some people change their sin nature BEFORE they are believers--which allows them to choose God. This would be BEFORE a person is born again.

[Libby]

In your statement you said that a some people change their sin nature BEFORE they are believers--which allows them to choose God. This would be BEFORE a person is born again.

No, just poor wording, I guess. We don't become "believers" until God draws us.

[Billyray]

I don't, personally, believe that we come to God on our own. God draws us. I think Alan believes that, as well.

We are not "free" to choose God, until he draws us.
Alan believes that a person can come to Christ at any time. No need to be drawn by the Father to Christ. That is why he went on and on about the universe = God drawing every single person AND God drawing us = the Father drawing us to Christ.

[Billyray]

No, just poor wording, I guess. We don't become "believers" until God draws us.
So that alone shows you that we don't have free will if we were to use the dictionary definition of "free will". We have a "choice" but we don't have the ability (free will) to come to Christ unless God intervenes first.

[Libby]

Alan believes that a person can come to Christ at any time. No need to be drawn by the Father to Christ. That is why he went on and on about the universe = God drawing every single person AND God drawing us = the Father drawing us to Christ.

I don't really see a problem with that position. It is similar to mine. God DOES draw us (or CAN) through the universe/nature. That can be a step towards Christ, if we respond positively to it.

[Libby]

So that alone shows you that we don't have free will if we were to use the dictionary definition of "free will". We have a "choice" but we don't have the ability (free will) to come to Christ unless God intervenes first.

I said, early on, that my view didn't line up with the dictionary defintion.

[Billyray]

I said, early on, that my view didn't line up with the dictionary defintion.
And that was the entire point of why I started this thread as you can see in my OP

Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.

[Billyray]

I don't really see a problem with that position. It is similar to mine. God DOES draw us (or CAN) through the universe/nature. That can be a step towards Christ, if we respond positively to it.
First, where does it say that the universe draws all men to Christ. Second, if the universe draws all men to Christ then what Christ said in John 6 is wrong.

[Libby]

I sincerely try to make "my view" as close to the Bible as I can. My biggest disagreement with Calvinism has to do with the "choosing" for salvation. And, that only a select "few" are drawn.

[Libby]

First, where does it say that the universe draws all men to Christ. Second, if the universe draws all men to Christ then what Christ said in John 6 is wrong.

Gosh, Billy....we have gone over this before.

The universe (IMO) does not specifically draw to Christ, but to God (of which Christ is a part). But, a basic belief in God may come first. Or simultaneously with a belief in Christ. Or any number of other ways you can think of.

[Libby]

The Gospel draws us to Christ....either reading or hearing it...

[Billyray]

The universe (IMO) does not specifically draw to Christ, but to God (of which Christ is a part).

I agree the universe does not draw men to Christ. It says clearly in John 6 that the Father draws men to Christ.


But, a basic belief in God may come first. Or simultaneously with a belief in Christ. Or any number of other ways you can think of.
Now you are starting to add stuff that the Bible doesn't teach.

[Billyray]

The Gospel draws us to Christ....either reading or hearing it...
So the Father drawing men to Christ is not necessary?

[Libby]

So the Father drawing men to Christ is not necessary?

Yes, of course the Father draws us. How do you think He does that, Billy?

[Billyray]

Yes, of course the Father draws us. How do you think He does that, Billy?
I think what you are trying to say is that the gospel equates to the Father drawing all men to Christ. Is that correct?

[Billyray]

Yes, of course the Father draws us. How do you think He does that, Billy?
By cleansing our heart and placing a new spirit within us (being born again)


http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/that-which-is-born-of-the-spirit-is-spirit

John Piper

". . .The Spirit's Free and Sovereign Work

Jesus uses the ****ogy of the wind in John 3:8,

The wind ****s where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
What is this verse trying to teach? I believe Jesus was trying to drive home the freedom and sovereignty of the Holy Spirit in the act of regeneration. "The wind, that is, the Spirit, ****s wherever it wills." The will of man is impotent at this point. We cannot start the wind ****ing, and we cannot change the direction of the wind and make it **** when we want it to. The Spirit ****s where he wills and, therefore, everyone born of the Spirit has been acted upon by the free Spirit and has been born anew, as John 1:13 says, "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." The new birth is not a result of our decision or our act of will. It precedes and enables the heart's decision to trust Christ.

There is another place in John's gospel where Jesus declares this truth with even greater clarity. In John 6:41 the Jews murmur because Jesus said, "I am the bread which came from heaven." In both cases Jesus was up against a resistant and imperceptive listener. So he says in John 6:43, 44, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." No one can come to Jesus unless drawn by God. The natural man cannot submit himself to God until a supernatural work of grace is done in his life, called "new birth" in John 3 and the "drawing of God" in John 6.

But someone may say, "You can't equate the new birth with this drawing by God because God draws all men to Christ." My answer is, "Yes, there is a drawing of all men in the sense that the enticing revelation of God in nature or in the gospel goes out to all men beckoning them to repent. But that is not the sort of drawing Jesus has in mind here." And this can be easily shown by looking at John 6:61–65. Again some of his disciples murmur and he says,

"Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe and who it was that would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father."
Here Jesus repeats verse 44 with only a slight change, but the connection here between verses 64 and 65 makes his meaning unmistakable: "There are some of you here that do not believe . . . That is why I said no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father." Why do I say to you that no one can come to me without the Father's enablement? I say it to explain why there are some who do not believe. Those do not believe because it has not been given to them by my Father. He has not drawn them like he has drawn the others.

Therefore it follows that saving faith does not precede and cause the new birth. But rather God the Father, by the agency of his Holy Spirit, regenerates freely whomever he pleases and by this draws a person to the Son enabling him to believe in the Son and be saved. This is "prevenient grace"—the gracious work of God preceding and enabling the act of faith. It is "irresistible grace." There are divine influences which can be resisted, but there are also those which cannot be. The new birth is one of those that is irresistible, because it operates beneath a person's consciousness transforming the root of his affections and thus removing his hostility to God. And finally, this is God's "effectual calling"—not the general call that goes out to all, but the creative call of God that brings into being something new by its own power (1 Corinthians 1:24; 2 Corinthians 4:6). . ."

[Billyray]

So Alan's position is that "man can do anything he wants whenever he wants to"

I think his position is a little more refined and defined than that, Billy.
Here is Alan's definition of free will from earlier in this thread.

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!
FREE WILL
1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

[alanmolstad]

my definition? ........

you sure about that or are you just making more stuff up about me again?

I got to call you on another one, because the quotation of mine that you have posted above just does not really sound like something I would have said on my own.
The use of the word "volition" ???????

and the way your quotation of me ends with the statement, ".....I like that!"seems to suggest that I was commenting on another person's definition and not talking about how I would define the term myself.


Now I have posted about a million/zillion words on this topic, and I cant say right now I remember each word I have used, nor each context I have used such-n-such words within...
and Im sure that there are many quotations of mine that I may be unsure that if I wrote them or not?




But,

Billy,because you have a reputation of pulling things out of thin air and then attempting to pin your invented ideas on to others, you better list where you lifted that quotation of mine from so i can check it out for myself and confirm that you are quoting me in the correct context.....

[alanmolstad]

The Gospel draws us to Christ....either reading or hearing it...
this is SO true!

The Bible is how we can learn all about the salvation story that God has recorded for men to believe.

[alanmolstad]

Gosh, Billy....we have gone over this before.

The universe (IMO) does not specifically draw to Christ, but to God (of which Christ is a part). But, a basic belief in God may come first. Or simultaneously with a belief in Christ. Or any number of other ways you can think of.


Here is how it works>
God the Son made the universe and all the things in it.
When the universe was made, it was designed from the beginning to reflect the maker's hand and is able to bring the person to an understanding about the nature of the God who made it.

and do we remember who was this god that made it?......thats right it was God the Son!.......Jesus our Lord!


So in other words, the things that are made can speak to our hearts and show us about Jesus Christ!






This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse ......and why I always ask about that verse "Excuse for what?"
The answer is that the universe and all the things that were made by the Lord Jesus Christ our Creator, show us Him, therefore none have an excuse for not believing in the Son, for the Son is the Creator and it is to Him and Him alone that the things that are made do testify.

For it is as Walter Martin says in the video I posted, that the lessor light will lead you to the greater light....
and let us remember that the light is all the same light, for that light is the light of Christ!

[alanmolstad]

I don't really see a problem with that position. It is similar to mine. God DOES draw us (or CAN) through the universe/nature. That can be a step towards Christ, if we respond positively to it.

the lessor light leads us the the greater light........

[alanmolstad]

I don't, personally, believe that we come to God on our own. God draws us. I think Alan believes that, as well.

We are not "free" to choose God, until he draws us. and we have been drawn from the beginning....This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse.
No man can ever stand up and say, "I was never drawn".......

[alanmolstad]

Then you are saying that Alan doesn't believe in free will?
did a nurse drop you on your head when you were younger?....................

after all this time, after million and zillions of comments I have posted on this topic where in every chance I get I state clearly that man has "Free Will" you are yet asking this question?......

Billy, when you make this type of stuff up, do you do so convinced that "no one will notice"?

[Billyray]

did a nurse drop you on your head when you were younger?....................

after all this time, after million and zillions of comments I have posted on this topic where in every chance I get I state clearly that man has "Free Will" you are yet asking this question?......

Billy, when you make this type of stuff up, do you do so convinced that "no one will notice"?
If you could give me a yes or a no to the following then that would clear it up for all of us.

Do you believe that man can do whatever he wants whenever he wants to? Yes or no?

[Billyray]

and we have been drawn from the beginning....This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse.
No man can ever stand up and say, "I was never drawn".......
The problem Alan is that your belief that "we have been drawn from the beginning" goes against what is taught in John 6. But you don't want to listen to what is taught in that chapter.

[Billyray]

This is why the Bible tells us that no man has any excuse ......and why I always ask about that verse "Excuse for what?"
The answer is that the universe and all the things that were made by the Lord Jesus Christ our Creator, show us Him, therefore none have an excuse for not believing in the Son, for the Son is the Creator and it is to Him and Him alone that the things that are made do testify.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Alan you cut off the verse that tell us. Verse 20 tells us what the creation teaches us namely "God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


The creation reveals that there is a God but it doesn't teach us about Christ and that our salvation is through Him. This is revealed in direct revelation.

[alanmolstad]

where is the quotation of my "definition" from?.....what number post is it?....

[Billyray]

my definition? ........

you sure about that or are you just making more stuff up about me again?

I got to call you on another one, because the quotation of mine that you have posted above just does not really sound like something I would have said on my own.
The use of the word "volition" ???????

and the way your quotation of me ends with the statement, ".....I like that!"seems to suggest that I was commenting on another person's definition and not talking about how I would define the term myself.


Now I have posted about a million/zillion words on this topic, and I cant say right now I remember each word I have used, nor each context I have used such-n-such words within...
and Im sure that there are many quotations of mine that I may be unsure that if I wrote them or not?




But,

Billy,because you have a reputation of pulling things out of thin air and then attempting to pin your invented ideas on to others, you better list where you lifted that quotation of mine from so i can check it out for myself and confirm that you are quoting me in the correct context.....
Here is YOUR quote--post #117 on page 5. BTW if you do go back and change it there will be a time stamp and it will be after the time stamp on my post. If it is attributed to another poster you didn't make that clear in you post.



Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!

[alanmolstad]

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Alan you cut off the verse that tell us. Verse 20 tells us what the creation teaches us namely "God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."


The creation reveals that there is a God but it doesn't teach us about Christ and that our salvation is through Him. This is revealed in direct revelation.

"God's" = Jesus Christ's!

[alanmolstad]

what post number is my definition from?...Ihave posted a great many things....Not all are easy to remember off-hand...thats why I wanted to just know where the quotation was from.....

[Billyray]

what post number is my definition from?
Alan the whole reason that I started this thread was to get people's definitions on how they are using the word "free will". I provided a dictionary definition. Perhaps you can set the record straight and give me the definition that you are comfortable with since you don't seem to claim the one above.

[Billyray]

"God's" = Jesus Christ's!
When a person looks at the universe does that person know that Jesus died on the cross and that the only way to be saved is to place your trust in Jesus that he paid for your sins?

[alanmolstad]

page 5?........

Somethin's not right about this.....I do not think on that page I gave my definition...and I doubt that would be my definition anyway.....just does not sound like something I would think, or the wording I would use....

I better check out this claim made abut my definition right now!

[alanmolstad]

Here is YOUR quote--post #117 on page 5. ....ok,,,lets have a look at that

[alanmolstad]

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!



hmmmm?.....sounds to me like Im just commenting on another person's post.....

What is posted just before my post?.....

[alanmolstad]

Yeah, I think it's possible (although, I don't know HOW) that Billy is misunderstanding your use of the term "free will".

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind.

I don't even believe we have "that" kind of free will. I think God does try to influence us, in that he draws us and gives us reasons to believe (even if it's just His creation-nature). He entices us (as you have said), so that, hopefully, we wil be influenced in the positive to turn to Him.

Calvinists take that a step too far and claim that we are "unwilling" (not unable, but unwilling) to choose God, until or unless God makes a drastic change in our nature (regeneration).

So, I think Billy is coming from the idea that we are "able"...we are just not "willing"?

But, I will be happy for him to speak for himself. I really don't like it when people try to speak for me, unless they are directly quoting me.




haha......caught you!

[Billyray]

god has never taken away the Free Will of any person...
So a man can do anything that he wants whenever he wants and this is free of any divine intervention?

[alanmolstad]

if I ever used the term "voluntary choice" let me know....but I doubt it...
I doubt it because it's clearly inaccurate as far as describing what i have said about Free Will...


it's odd too, for I have posted tons and tons of words on what free Will means....and yet you had to pull your own meaning out of thin air ?

It's kinda a pattern with you it seems......to pull crazy **** out of thin air and then turn around and try to pin your invented ideas onto other people.....You got caught doing this very same thing over and over on this topic even back there at the early start it seems.

I was on to you then just as Im on to your games now...haha,,,,

[Billyray]

haha......caught you!
Caught me? Huh? I posted YOUR post. In fact in the very next post you add to her definition even more. Let's look at post #117 and #118

Free will means free of our own volition without interference of any kind......I like that!


I like tha Libby...that is much in agreement with my own views.

Its not just about being able to make a choice that you want, its about not being interfered with...

its the "Free" in Free Will that is the most key thing to understand.
You have back to back posts and you were in agreement with Libby. You even said "I like that!" And in the next post immediately following you said "that is much in agreement with my own views." And you didn't hold back you went even further when you added "Its not just about being able to make a choice that you want, its about not being interfered with"

[Billyray]

It's kinda a pattern with you it seems......to pull crazy **** out of thin air and then turn around and try to pin your invented ideas onto other people.....You got caught doing this very same thing over and over on this topic even back there at the early start it seems.

I was on to you then just as Im on to your games now...haha,,,,

Alan I have repeatedly asked you to define the term "free will". That was the point of this entire thread. I have given you a dictionary definition and you didn't like that. I have quoted your posts in which you seem to agree with Libby's definition and then you add to it in your very next post. I honestly believe that you are incapable of giving me a straight forward definition.

[alanmolstad]

my definition is found back at the very start of this topic.....perhaps on the first page of it?.....I think around post number #25 or so.


Billy you go on and on about a comment I made where I said that Libby's understanding of how Free Will works is "much like" my own...
and this is a true for Libby does have an understanding that is close and much like my own.....But it's still "her" understanding.

It's her ideas.....

I was commenting on how her ideas are walking in a direction much like where mine are going.

If I said that "Your house looks much like mine" it does not mean that I live with you!"

But my definition is not the same as hers, and the tip off is when you quoted what you were attempting to say was my definition and had me appear to use words that I simply dont use.

I use a rather limited number of words......and Libby makes use of a far wider list of words that are in her vocabulary.


So, in the future Billy, I suggest that when you want to refer people to "Alan's definition" that you might try to refer people to what is "Alan's" real definition......LOL

[alanmolstad]

yes!

all men are drawn to Christ.
The very universe is said to show God's nature to us, so there is no one on the earth that has ever lived that can say "God never drew me"

as long as the sun is burning, the world is turning, the birds are cherping, and the sea is....um..seaing. the things that are made by the creator do preach to us about the creator.

I like to define the word "draw" in this situation as meaning, "To attract"

Like a boy who wants to "attract' the attention of a nice girl...



and here is where I define what it means to have God draw you to himself.....

[Billyray]

my definition is found back at the very start of this topic.....perhaps on the first page of it?.....I think around post number #25 or so.

I have no idea after all of these post how you are defining this word and I have asked you multiple times now. When I try to get it from your previous post you act like I am trying to trick you. Why is it so hard to define a simple English word? The only reason that I can think of is that once you define it then I will be able show you that by your own definition of this word man doesn't have free will.

[alanmolstad]

Im sure if you had paid attention you would have not missed it where I give everyone how I define the term Free Will.....check #25...

[Billyray]

and here is where I define what it means to have God draw you to himself.....
Then you are using the term "draw" in a different way that Jesus was using it in John 6. Because in John 6 there were those who clearly saw the universe and heard Jesus' message and saw miracles that he performed--yet they were unable to come to Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

so free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice.

even my dog and cat can do that.


its about the freedom to choise and not being forced to decide one thing over the other.

free to decide.....free to make up your own mind....freedom to change your mind too.....freedom to repent.....nothing set in stone.....

here is where I begin to teach on how Free Will works in our lives and within the concept of the Lord's powerful sovereignty over His universe.

[alanmolstad]

so free willnis not jusst the ability to make a choice......but that is part of it.


and free will is not just about feelings......but that is connected to it.


but its about being truly free of will.
to be truly free of force......to not be bound.....not just to feel free. but to truly be free.

this next post i go into more of what Free Will means to us and what it is and is not....for a lot of people claim things about the term that are simply not correct

[Billyray]

Im sure if you had paid attention you would have not missed it where I give everyone how I define the term Free Will.....check #25...
Here is post #25 and you are defining the term "free will"

its 2:30 here......im on my phone.......
im still in bed.......wife cant sleep and is keeping me awake......

billy why.........you know billy i have posted so much on this topic already that anyone has a doubt what free will means.....


free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

will - means you thinking mind
So is this your official definition of "free will"?

[alanmolstad]

Then you are using the term "draw" .....

We had to study Free Will back in Bible school, and as we did I had a chance to read the teachings of Martin Luther on how God "draws' men to himself.
I believe what I remember of Luther's teaching is that the word "draw' has the given context in the text of being like how a person that likes another will do things to "attract' the other person......to woo the other person...to "draw" them into a closer relationship....

I believe one of the images is that a boy sees a girl across the room that he likes and wants to get to know better, so he does things that he will hope will "attract" the attention and interest of the girl.

[alanmolstad]

Free Will

Free = not a slave......

Will = the thinking mind


(more or less about the same definition I gave you at the start of this topic when i was first asked to define the term and i did right away....even when the hour was much too early to be thinking past getting some sleep)

[alanmolstad]

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
By this quote what I talking about is the tendency of many who hate the term "Free Will" to switch the definition around so that when I say "Free Will" they only hear "ability to make a choice"

They do this because they hate the term "Free Will" so much that they hope to get everyone to stop using the term by switching it over to mean something else that it actually does not mean.

But here I point out that it's not just about being able to make a choice between two things, for even animals have that simple ability.
You see, Free Will is all about the Freedom you have to make a choice that is not under some type of pressure.
the example I give is to think of a guy who walks into a bank and demands all the money.
At first glance we think this guy is a normal Bank Robber, and so treat him as someone who is guilty of breaking the law and so find him guilty.
But what if later we learn that the guy had been kidnapped and had a bomb strapped to his chest and was told that unless he goes into the bank and walks out with all the money he will get bown up along with everyone else in the bank?

Then in this case we understand that in this context the guy is "not guilty" because we understand that his decision to walk in and rob the bank was made "under duress".

What is the difference then?.....the difference is that we believe the person lacked "Free Will" to make a choice.
He still made a choice...he still walked into a bank and robbed it....
But we dont believe he is guilty of a crime because of a lack of Free Will to make a decision to rob the bank or not....

In other words, if I force your finger to pull a trigger, you are not responsible for the gun going off.





"It's about the freedom to choose and not being forced to decide one thing over the other."
In this quote I think Im talking about the reason we are held to answer for our actions.
The reason we are is that we have the freedom and the free will to decide for ourselves if we will believe or not.

The fact that there is a "Hell" means that we must have Free Will......

[John T]

"So free will is not just the ability to do stuff like make a choice, even my dog and cat can do that."
<SNIP>...

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[alanmolstad]

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.
My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

[John T]

My point is that the term "Free Will" is not just talking about the ability to make simple decisions......


Im highlighting the word "Free" in the term Free Will, for this gives us the key to understand how Free Will is part of our lives.

Then I submit that you are changing the definitions.

As to my previous point about free will and animals, I submit this as proof that I am correct.:p
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/4wWV4Db3v28neM92OgjIug--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTgwODtweW9mZj0wO3E9Nz U7dz02MDA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ucomics.com/pe140608.jpg

[alanmolstad]

again,
My point is that some people try to maintain that Free Will is just the same as being able to make a simple decision.
But I argue against that limited understanding of the term because I don't believe it carries the full context of being truly "Free" that you need to keep in mind when you are talking about "FREE will"

I also point out that even animals have the ability to make simple decisions, yet we don't believe them to have Free Will due to the power of instinct over their whole lives.
This is why when i talk about the correct understanding of Free Will I always make sure people understand that it means to be truly "free' and not a "slave" of someone or something else that is pressuring you to decide one thing over another.

[Libby]

By cleansing our heart and placing a new spirit within us (being born again)

I see the problem or difference in the way we perceive God's "drawing". I noticed this before, but had forgotten about it.

You seem to equate "drawing" with regeneration. So, anyone who is drawn by the Father is also regenerated by the drawing?

I do understand how you come to that, especially considering John 6:44.

I am not seeing the Father's drawing as regeneration. I see it as an enticement, an attraction given by God's grace. Some will respond, some will not. Some will be regenerated, some will not.

[alanmolstad]

libby...I have noticed this same thing too with Calvinists,,,,they tend to have a need to push regeneration in front of faith....

[Libby]

libby...I have noticed this same thing too with Calvinists,,,,they tend to have a need to push regeneration in front of faith....

Yes.

Found this site (there are several) on the differences between "order of salvation" for Arminians and Calvinists.



Arminian ordo salutis:

Prevenient grace
Faith
[Union with Christ]
Justification
Regeneration
Sanctification
Glorification

Calvinist ordo salutis:

Election/Predestination (unconditional)
Regeneration
Faith
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/the-arminian-and-calvinist-ordo-salutis-a-brief-comparative-study/

[Libby]

Saw this on Facebook. I liked it. What do you think?

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10375897_328939843930582_5423567634239675425_n.jpg

[Billyray]

I am not seeing the Father's drawing as regeneration. I see it as an enticement, an attraction given by God's grace. Some will respond, some will not. Some will be regenerated, some will not.
A couple of issues with that belief. First there are those who are unable to come to Christ in John 6. If every single person is drawn--by the creation and by Jesus' words--then all those mentioned in John 6 would be able to come to him, but that is not the case as stated by Jesus himself in John 6. Second those who are drawn are raised. It doesn't say all are drawn and some are raised.

[RealFakeHair]

ALL animals have is instinct and not free will. They are not rational beings nor can they be saved. Therefore free will is a salvation-related term.

By throwing the animal kingdom into the discussion, confusion of the terms is the result.
It is really difficult for me to keep up with Alan's intellect so I play dumb, ah, I don't have to play dumb.

[Libby]

A couple of issues with that belief. First there are those who are unable to come to Christ in John 6. If every single person is drawn--by the creation and by Jesus' words--then all those mentioned in John 6 would be able to come to him, but that is not the case as stated by Jesus himself in John 6. Second those who are drawn are raised. It doesn't say all are drawn and some are raised.

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..

[Billyray]

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..
There are not "many" verses that say that God draws all men to Christ. In fact you or Alan haven't given me a single one. If you stick with what the Bible says the only conclusion you can make is that God does not draw all men all men to Christ.

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, I see the problems from that verse. But, there are many verses that indicate God does draw (love) all people and wants all to be saved.

Like...

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...for example..

There was that fifth grade teacher I really hated, so I don't think the old witch was draw by anything thing but crab apples, and sour mash.

Yes, the Scriptures tell us God loved the World and gave His Son, that whosoever .
The Scripture also tell us Jesus will draw all men to him, and it has, but not all men are not Saved.
The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.

[alanmolstad]

There was that fifth grade teacher I really hated, so I don't think the old witch was draw by anything thing but crab apples, and sour mash.

Yes, the Scriptures tell us God loved the World and gave His Son, that whosoever .
The Scripture also tell us Jesus will draw all men to him, and it has, but not all men are not Saved.
The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.
The point Christ was making with his work on the cross is that in the cross there is total freedom from sin....and this is the thing that attracts all men who have sin......


No, it does not mean that all men will complete the action of God's drawing them and believe in the cross of Christ.

But regardless the offer of salvation goes out to all men,regardless of if they later believe or not...

[alanmolstad]

It is really difficult for me to keep up with Alan's intellect so I play dumb, ah, I don't have to play dumb.


You have done something that no other member of this forum has been able to do.....You listed my name "Alan" in the same sentence with the word "intellect"

[alanmolstad]

God draws all men to the cross though the Son.

All that we can ever learn of the father is give us in the Son.
nothing the Son does is on his own.....the Son can draw no one to himself unless he sees the father drawing all men to Himself.

Thus when we read that the Son draws all men to Himself we know that it is only because the Son sees the father drawing all men to Himself....

[Billyray]

The point Christ was making with his work on the cross is that in the cross there is total freedom from sin....and this is the thing that attracts all men who have sin......
.
You said --"the thing that attracts all men who have sin"

Men are not attracted to God in their natural state. Only after God changes them do they come to Christ and place their faith in Him.

[Billyray]

God draws all men to the cross though the Son.
.
What verse says that God draws ALL men to Christ?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

What about those in verse 36 who followed Christ, heard his teachings, and saw his miracles--they didn't believe in Christ because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

[Libby]

There are not "many" verses that say that God draws all men to Christ. In fact you or Alan haven't given me a single one. If you stick with what the Bible says the only conclusion you can make is that God does not draw all men all men to Christ.

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?

[alanmolstad]

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?
so true Libby....its the way God is,,its His nature to love all the world...

All are drawn to the cross of christ, but not all respond to the light from heaven they receive...

But all do receive such light, for this is the reason the Bible teaches that no man has an excuse.....for the very world itself preaches to the world of men about the creator..

and let us never forget that the Creator is the Lord Jesus Christ!

[Libby]

What verse says that God draws ALL men to Christ?

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

What about those in verse 36 who followed Christ, heard his teachings, and saw his miracles--they didn't believe in Christ because they were not given to the Son by the Father.

Who are those that are given? And, why are they given?

[alanmolstad]

The very fact of mentioning His name draws all men.Amen!!!!!!!

[Libby]

so true Libby....its the way God is,,its His nature to love all the world...

All are drawn to the cross of christ, but not all respond to the light from heaven they receive...

But all do receive such light, for this is the reason the Bible teaches that no man has an excuse.....for the very world itself preaches to the world of men about the creator..

and let us never forget that the Creator is the Lord Jesus Christ!

That's right.

[Billyray]

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?
Alan claims (and you seem to agree) that God draws ALL men to Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach that and you or Alan haven't given a single verse that supports that he does.

[Billyray]

Who are those that are given? And, why are they given?
They are the elect and all that are given will come to Christ.

[Billyray]

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?
God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?

[Billyray]

John 12
16 His disciples did not understand these things at first, but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things had been written about him and had been done to him.
17 The crowd that had been with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to bear witness.
18 The reason why the crowd went to meet him was that they heard he had done this sign.
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”

Does the phrase "the WORLD has gone after him" mean every single person has gone after Christ?

[Libby]

God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?

Do you really think God would be "just" in saving "no one", after sacrificing his only Son?

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.
bump for our new guest

[Billyray]

Do you really think God would be "just" in saving "no one", after sacrificing his only Son?
God would be just in not saving anyone.

Let's look at a judge who judges 10 murderers. Would it be just to sentence all 10 of them to life in prison?

[Billyray]

. . ."Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign. . ."
Romans 9
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You say God is Sovereign. What does that mean as it relates to these verses in Romans 9? What was God's purpose for Pharaohs life?

[Billyray]

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?
Luke 2:1 And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”


Does "the world" mean every single person?

[Billyray]

Why wouldn't he, Billy? The Bible says that God so loved the "world" that he gave his only begotten Son. If he so loves the world, why would he pick and choose only "some"?
In the OT God had a "chosen" group of true believers in the coming Messiah. How do you see that as any different?

[Libby]

God would be just in not saving anyone.

Let's look at a judge who judges 10 murderers. Would it be just to sentence all 10 of them to life in prison?

No, I'm not going there with you, again, because it is not comparable to what God has done for us.

Just answer my question. Do you think it would be "just" to NOT save ANYONE, after the Father sacrificed His only Son, as atonement for our sins?

[Libby]

In the OT God had a "chosen" group of true believers in the coming Messiah. How do you see that as any different?

It's different because Christ said he would draw ALL people to himself, when he was raised up. God opened the doors for the whole world, if they would simply come to Him, when he draws them.

[Billyray]

Just answer my question. Do you think it would be "just" to NOT save ANYONE, after the Father sacrificed His only Son, as atonement for our sins?
Would it be just to punish every single person for their sins? The answer is yes. However this wouldn't require the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the elect shows that He plans to save some--but not all.

If God saved every single person then this would not show justice. If God didn't save anyone this would be just. God's plan shows both justice and mercy. Justice by punishing sin and mercy by saving those who don't deserve to be saved.

[Billyray]

It's different because Christ said he would draw ALL people to himself, when he was raised up. God opened the doors for the whole world, if they would simply come to Him, when he draws them.
Christ said that he would draw all people when he went to the cross--not before. What about all of those who died prior to the cross? That is why your verse doesn't work to support your position because not every single person would be drawn. As we discussed earlier this verse in context with the surrounding verse is speaking about people groups--not individuals. While Christ was alive his message was to the Jews--not to the Gentiles. After his death his message spread to all people groups namely the Gentiles.

Libby you still can't show me a single verse that says that the Father draws all men to Christ. The verses that we do have that speak about God drawing men to Christ show just the opposite--that the Father doesn't draw all men to Christ. Read John 6 again. In order to hold your position you must reject what Christ taught in this chapter.

[alanmolstad]

You say God is Sovereign. What does that mean as it relates to these verses in Romans 9? What was God's purpose for Pharaohs life?

To be "sovereign" is to be the king...to have your will be the law.

[alanmolstad]

Does "the world" mean every single person?


At John 3:16 it means both the living and the dead....both the already born and the yet to be born.....both they who believe and they who do not.


its like the verse, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" for the "we" in this verse is all people. because there were no other people that were non-sinners when Jesus died.

We = all, all of us, the whole world, every one of us,


its as Walter Martin taught = the death of Christ is "sufficient" to cover the sins of all people, yet it is "efficient" in covering the sins of they who respond. So there is no one ever on this Earth that the blood of Christ was not "sufficient " to cover their sin. For "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that anyone WHO BELIEVES in him should not die"

[alanmolstad]

God would be just if he doesn't save anyone.

Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?



Did God love Esau?
I would answer "yes"....


It's the same as when Jesus tells us that to follow him you must "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother,..."

if you were to ask me, "Do you think Jesus wants you to LOVE your parents?" I would say "yes"




So this means?.....
It means that in the Bible you do find a lot of use of hyperbole (see - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole )

[RealFakeHair]

At John 3:16 it means both the living and the dead....both the already born and the yet to be born.....both they who believe and they who do not.


its like the verse, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" for the "we" in this verse is all people. because there were no other people that were non-sinners when Jesus died.

We = all, all of us, the whole world, every one of us,


its as Walter Martin taught = the death of Christ is "sufficient" to cover the sins of all people, yet it is "efficient" in covering the sins of they who respond. So there is no one ever on this Earth that the blood of Christ was not "sufficient " to cover their sin. For "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that anyone WHO BELIEVES in him should not die"
Why did you say you were universalist, would save alot of time.

[Libby]

What Alan is saying is not universalism. Universalists believe that God/Jesus will "save" everyone, somehow. Alan and I are simply saying that everyone is drawn and has the "opportunity" to be saved. Not that everyone "will" be saved.