Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Its one of my better posts....nice and short and to the point...

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billyray
2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?


Libby
I don't know if "fair" is really the word I would use. It's just that God, Himself, is Holy and perfect, and the Bible says unclean/unholy things cannot dwell in the Presence of the Lord.

If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments? [Your answer is above]

If a person is unable to [come to Christ] is it fair for God to punish him for not [coming to Christ]?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

They don't indicate that "not everyone is drawn". They do indicate that Jesus is the "narrow gate"..and not everyone will accept the call.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

One of the verses that Christian used was John 6:65 so let's take a look at both verses 64 and 65. What reason did Christ give in verse 65 for the reason that those in verse 64 did not believe?f

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments? [Your answer is above]

If a person is unable to [come to Christ] is it fair for God to punish him for not [coming to Christ]?

What I would find "unfair" is giving the ability to "some", but not "all".

Not all will come, of course, and no it is not unfair to punish (or exclude) those who "will not" come.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

One of the verses that Christian used was John 6:65 so let's take a look at both verses 64 and 65. What reason did Christ give in verse 65 for the reason that those in verse 64 did not believe?f

I think we discussed this before (like most everything else here).

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them"

He is talking about those the Father knew, beforehand, would answer His call.

" "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What I would find "unfair" is giving the ability to "some", but not "all".

So if God sent everyone to Hell then you would consider this fair. Correct?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think we discussed this before (like most everything else here).

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them"

He is talking about those the Father knew, beforehand, would answer His call.

We are back to your pat answer of "foreknowledge" and I have asked you to explain exactly what you mean by this but thus far you haven't done so. Since you haven't really explained how this works exactly I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions so that I can better understand what you mean by this. Let's start with this one and then we can move on after you answer it.


Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So if God sent everyone to Hell then you would consider this fair. Correct?

Yes........

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are back to your pat answer of "foreknowledge" and I have asked you to explain exactly what you mean by this but thus far you haven't done so. Since you haven't really explained how this works exactly I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions so that I can better understand what you mean by this. Let's start with this one and then we can move on after you answer it.


Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes........

In this case it would show that God is a "just" judge.

Lets say that there are 10 convicts who committed murder and they were sentenced by the judge to death row. All 10 are responsible for their crime and the judge was "just" in his sentencing. A little time p***es and one of the ten is pardoned by the governor. Is it a fair punishment for the remaining nine convicts who are still on death row?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

Originally Posted by Libby

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).

So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In this case it would show that God is a "just" judge.

Lets say that there are 10 convicts who committed murder and they were sentenced by the judge to death row. All 10 are responsible for their crime and the judge was "just" in his sentencing. A little time p***es and one of the ten is pardoned by the governor. Is it a fair punishment for the remaining nine convicts who are still on death row?

Only if there was a good reason for pardoning the one, without pardoning all.

In our justice system, pardons don't, usually, just "happen". They happen for a reason. Either the person is found innocent, or some kind of doubt has been raised. Or something to do with the prisoner's behavior, gives cause for a second chance.

[Libby]

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon. I do believe his "way out" is purely by his loving grace and desire to have us come to him. But, we do have to accept his gift. We have to believe. That's the only requirement. And, I believe (from what I read in the Bible) that the gift is extended to ALL men...not just a few.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Libby

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon. I do believe his "way out" is purely by his loving grace and desire to have us come to him. But, we do have to accept his gift. We have to believe. That's the only requirement. And, I believe (from what I read in the Bible) that the gift is extended to ALL men...not just a few.

Just for the record, Jesus, never said. "Think about it and come back tomorrow."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Only if there was a good reason for pardoning the one, without pardoning all.

So you would say that it is unfair to punish the remaining nine convicts for committing murder?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Just as clarification, I'm not saying that God gives us a second chance, because he finds us innocent. That's how the situation you described (with our justice system) is different from God's pardon.

The situation is the exact same for God's pardon and the governor pardoning the convicted criminal. So perhaps you misunderstood what I actually wrote. Go back and read the example again and see if that clears it up for you. If not ask me what you are unclear about.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do "those the Father knew, beforehand, [who] would answer His call"--come to Christ on their own without being "drawn" or "enabled" by the Father (in God's "foreknowledge")?

Originally Posted by Libby

No, according to the Bible, God will draw them (as you know).

So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So when God thought about who would be saved and who would not be saved, only those who God thought about drawing would come to Him thus God did not draw ALL men in his thoughts (foreknowledge). Agree?

Huh?

No, I don't agree. I "agree" with exactly what I wrote.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Just for the record, Jesus, never said. "Think about it and come back tomorrow."

??

Sorry, I must be slow, today.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

Alan have you found anyone on this board--either Christian or mormon--that agrees with your belief that a person has the ability to live a sin free life just like Jesus?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The situation is the exact same for God's pardon and the governor pardoning the convicted criminal. So perhaps you misunderstood what I actually wrote. Go back and read the example again and see if that clears it up for you. If not ask me what you are unclear about.

No, it's not the same. Governor's, generally, pardon for a reason (as I mentioned above). God is giving pardon as a free gift, no strings attached. All we have to do is accept it.

Since God's pardon is a free gift, given for no reason, other than He loves us, it's not really the same. Your ****ogy doesn't work.

My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their children. Suppose a parent had ten children and only ever offered gifts to one of them. Wouldn't that be a bit strange? Wouldn't you kind of wonder about that parent and their motives? Wouldn't you tend to think that parent was playing favorites?

God doesn't play favorites...and that's biblical.

[Libby]

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Romans 2:11
For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 3:29
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Galatians 2:6
As for those who were held in high esteem--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism--they added nothing to my message.

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, it's not the same.

In my example it is the same.

Originally Posted by Libby

Governor's, generally, pardon for a reason (as I mentioned above).

And in my example the person who was pardoned was guilty.

Originally Posted by Libby

God is giving pardon as a free gift, no strings attached. All we have to do is accept it.

As does the 1 who is pardoned by the Governor.

Originally Posted by Libby

Since God's pardon is a free gift, given for no reason, other than He loves us, it's not really the same. Your ****ogy doesn't work.

You falsely ***ume that it is for no other reason because of your preconceived ideas.

Originally Posted by Libby

My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their children. Suppose a parent had ten children and only ever offered gifts to one of them. Wouldn't that be a bit strange? Wouldn't you kind of wonder about that parent and their motives? Wouldn't you tend to think that parent was playing favorites?

But those who are not saved are not his children. So your ****ogy is false. Let's use the Bible to correct your ****ogy to fit the truth.

Libby's example corrected to fit what the Bible teaches
My ****ogy (for Calvinism) would be along the lines of a parent giving gifts to their child. Suppose a parent had one child AND there are 9 ohter kids who live in your neighborhood and you gave a gift to your child but didn't a give gift to the neighborhood kids Wouldn't that be a bit strange?

What would be strange is for you to give a gift that you gave your child to every other kid who lived in your neighborhood.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:9
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What message is Peter trying to convey with this section of scripture?

Who are "them" in verse 8?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.

As above there is a comparison between the Jew and the Gentile. If a Jew breaks the commandments he will punished. If a gentile breaks the commandments he will be punished. Jews believed that because of their heritage that they would somehow be better off than the Gentiles. But Paul goes on to show them that both the Jew and the Gentile breaks the law.

BK Commentary
". . .The statement first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (lit. "Greek") does not imply special consideration for Jews. Instead, in the light of the divine standard of impartiality (God does not show favoritism), it emphasizes that the entire human race is dealt with by God. . ."