Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

This is a very good answer.

the fact that the universe reflects the Lord's hand is not an accident.

the universe was designed to do this very thing.

But men dont always do the right thing...we dont always want to see what we should ...
but this does not mean the God stopped reaching out to all men....

Yes, I agree....and thanks for the kind support, Alan.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually I think we are just about getting somewhere with this Libby. I have already seen you change your position several times now--perhaps you are at least starting to solidify your beliefs a little bit here.

Well, I don't think I have changed the main premise with which I started, which is that God draws all people to himself and some answer the call and others do not.

But I am still waiting for you to tell me what you mean when you say "faith" in the only true God. What exactly do you mean when you say "faith"? For example when you say faith in God does that mean that you believe in a god?

Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. The one and only Living God. The God described in the Bible. That GOD.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."

what a great image to remember!


thanks!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I don't think I have changed the main premise with which I started, which is that God draws all people to himself and some answer the call and others do not.

But we were talking about the Father drawing ALL people to Christ. So here is where we are at:

1. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.
2. You believe that ALL have not even heard about Christ.

As I said before this is a conflicting belief. Perhaps you can try and restate how you justify these conflicting beliefs.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. The one and only Living God. The God described in the Bible. That GOD.

I am not sure you don't understand what I am asking--despite giving you examples of what I am asking. I asked you what you mean when you say "faith" in the one true God. So I will tell you what I you mean by "faith"--since you seem to be unable to tell me yourself--and you can correct me if what I have said is incorrect.

Salvation is by "Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. "
Salvation is by "[Believing] that there is One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But we were talking about the Father drawing ALL people to Christ. So here is where we are at:

1. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.
2. You believe that ALL have not even heard about Christ.

As I said before this is a conflicting belief. Perhaps you can try and restate how you justify these conflicting beliefs.

is the universe still here?.......there's your answer Billy

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

is the universe still here?.......there's your answer Billy

Yes Alan the universe is still here. Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yes Alan the universe is still here. Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

just what the text says......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

just what the text says......

Come on Alan you and Libby are making this claim--surely you have some ideas about what you believe.

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Alan can you tell me what these verses say and how it relates to your beliefs?

[Libby]

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

Nothing. I don't think I made that claim. What the universe shows us is that there is an Intelligent Creator at work here. That is the "beginning" of God's drawing (IMHO)...or one of the ways God can begin to draw us. If we listen to that call...God will give us more. He will guide us as we seek...he will send someone to teach...if we listen...he will draw us in even more..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Nothing. I don't think I made that claim. What the universe shows us is that there is an Intelligent Creator at work here. That is the "beginning" of God's drawing (IMHO)...or one of the ways God can begin to draw us. If we listen to that call...God will give us more. He will guide us as we seek...he will send someone to teach...if we listen...he will draw us in even more..

1. Since you agree that the universe --without any direct revelation--doesn't specifically reveal Christ then you can't claim that this has anything to do with the Father drawing ALL men to the Son.

2. Second if the universe--without any direct revelation--is a way for the Father to draw ALL men to Christ why does Paul say that say "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Since you agree that the universe --without any direct revelation--doesn't specifically reveal Christ then you can't claim that this has anything to do with the Father drawing ALL men to the Son.

Yes, I can and believe I did. At least twice, I have said that this could be the first phase.

2. Second if the universe--without any direct revelation--is a way for the Father to draw ALL men to Christ why does Paul say that say "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Perhaps...before the Father starts drawing them...and, maybe, even after, because not everyone will respond to the drawing.

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.

God's grace is shining down on all of us, in the beauty and awe inspiring spectacle of this earth and universe. All we have to do is "notice"....and there will be more of God's grace to come.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You keep giving me this verse like it's a magic bullet or something, Billy. Just because people walk away, doesn't mean they have not been "enabled". They are perfectly able (through God's grace) to choose God/Christ. Some just don't. They don't even get that far. They look at the universe and shrug..and then walk away and busy themselves with their own lives.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Perhaps...before the Father starts drawing them...and, maybe, even after, because not everyone will respond to the drawing.

What do you mean "before the Father starts drawing them" when you believe that the creation draws men to Christ? Libby you can't seem to hold a consistent belief. It is constantly changing page by page as we discuss this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.

And what does that have to do with what I asked you? I see it as simply a diversion. If the creation draws men to Christ then shouldn't men be able to come to Christ? Yet lets look at the verses again in John 6

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Since every man can see the creation--which according to you is the Father drowning ALL men to Christ--wouldn't those in verse 64 be able to come to Christ since they have been drawn to Him by the creation?t

[Billyray]

[QUOTE=Libby;158173]
You keep giving me this verse like it's a magic bullet or something, Billy. Just because people walk away, doesn't mean they have not been "enabled".
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

So you would say that those in verse 64 were enable to come to Christ? Is that what this verse says?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Come on Alan you and Libby are making this claim--surely you have some ideas about what you believe.

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?



?

Again, what does the text say as to the answer?


lets just have a look shall we?

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

"For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

"He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."




So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us .

If we have faith in God, this is what we see is shown us in the things that are made.

There is no "other" message found there..
the universe itself reflects it's maker's hand, and that hand is JESUS!



The universe is God showing us the Son!

The universe shows us Not only the power of the Creator, but also his "divine nature".....
In other words, if you have saving faith in the Son, the thing you are able to see is what is shown all men in the things that are made.



Now pay attention to this next part>

THIS.......this......this is why the Bible tells us that the people who die in unbelief in the Son do so "without excuse"!
They are without excuse because all you can know of God is given us in the Son.....there is no "other" revelation to learn about God....only in the Son does man learn about the Father.
Jesus is shown us in the things that are made!


This is why it's so silly when someone says> "You have only shown me the Son drawing all men, show me the father drawing all men?"For the answer from the text teaches us ""Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

If the Son is said to be drawing all men to himself, it is ONLY because the Father is drawing all men to Himself.

[disciple]

This is a very interesting discussion and its nice to see patience and good manners even with differing opinions.
Does anyone disagree with any of the following statements?

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation.

Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.

No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.

God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.

God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by disciple

This is a very interesting discussion and its nice to see patience and good manners even with differing opinions.
Does anyone disagree with any of the following statements?

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation.

Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.

No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.

God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.

God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.

I would agree with all of those points, disciple.

[Libby]

Good points, in your last post, Alan. (points that I know you have made several times!)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you mean "before the Father starts drawing them" when you believe that the creation draws men to Christ? Libby you can't seem to hold a consistent belief. It is constantly changing page by page as we discuss this.

No, not inconsistent, at all. I agree with you (and the Bible) that man cannot turn to God on his own. So, I was actually agreeing with you, here, that before God starts "drawing" someone (through creation or whatever) that person will not be able to turn to God on his own.

Hope that is more clear.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And what does that have to do with what I asked you? I see it as simply a diversion. If the creation draws men to Christ then shouldn't men be able to come to Christ? Yet lets look at the verses again in John 6

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Since every man can see the creation--which according to you is the Father drowning ALL men to Christ--wouldn't those in verse 64 be able to come to Christ since they have been drawn to Him by the creation?t

They are "able" (through God's drawing), perhaps just not "willing".

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Libby

I would agree with all of those points, disciple.

I still believe that all people are free to choose Gods offer of eternal life but perhaps that's not what people mean by free will. Prior to the fall, Adam's will was not in bondage to sin, thus it was free from sin's bondage and corruption but it was not free from God's decree. His choice to rebel was completely voluntary even though God has ordained with certainty that it would come to p***. The rich young ruler in Luke 18 was given a choice by Jesus and he chose badly and there are many other examples in scripture where God gives humans the opportunity to choose Him or not. When the tower of Siloam fell on some people, Jesus said, "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Again the choice repent or perish.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

They are "able" (through God's drawing), perhaps just not "willing".

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

But that is not what these verses say Libby. Were those in verse 64 able (or enabled) to come to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, not inconsistent, at all. I agree with you (and the Bible) that man cannot turn to God on his own. So, I was actually agreeing with you, here, that before God starts "drawing" someone (through creation or whatever) that person will not be able to turn to God on his own.

Hope that is more clear.

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

". . .So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us . . ."

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?