Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

But that is not what these verses say Libby. Were those in verse 64 able (or enabled) to come to Christ?

Apparently not. Not yet, anyway.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

This is a very interesting discussion and its nice to see patience and good manners even with differing opinions.
Does anyone disagree with any of the following statements?

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation.

Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.

No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.

God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.

God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.

wise words......well said....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Good points, in your last post, Alan. (points that I know you have made several times!)

forsome reason you guys seem to post when im busy or at work?

When Im home and not doing anything and have some free time I can post and not see a responce to my post for 12 hours?

yet the moment I go to work,BOOM!...76 new posts within the hour?



why is that anyway?...LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

very good!

yes, the father is drawing all men to himself though the son.
the universe speaks to men about God...and the God that it speaks to us about is the Son, who is also the creator...
All that we will ever know about God is though the son.....

So this is why yu are correct..The Father is reaching out to men via His son.....and this comes though in the things that are made.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that everything about Jesus is know by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

what did I just quote you?

im only quoting the bible......and the bible tells us that all we can know about God , not only his power as creator, but even his hidden nature, is revealed .

And this is all according to plan....
This is why in that video of Walter Martin he talks about that fact that God did not leave the far lands without hope, for the Bible tells us that you can search for God and FIND HIM!!!!!!!!!!!


No matter where you are in the world....

Even if you never hear of the new testament?....YES!

Even if you never see a christian missionary?......YES!

Even if you never get a chance to be baptised?......YES!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what did I just quote you?

im only quoting the bible......and the bible tells us that all we can know about God , not only his power as creator, but even his hidden nature, is revealed .

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

So you would agree with what I said above. Correct Alan?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

That is what the Bible is saying...Libby is just smart enough to believe it.......not all are that way however.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you would agree with what I said above. Correct Alan?

why dont you quote the verses i have been using?.....then i will tell you if they are true or not.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again, what does the text say as to the answer?


lets just have a look shall we?

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

"For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

"He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."




So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us .

If we have faith in God, this is what we see is shown us in the things that are made.

There is no "other" message found there..
the universe itself reflects it's maker's hand, and that hand is JESUS!



The universe is God showing us the Son!

The universe shows us Not only the power of the Creator, but also his "divine nature".....
In other words, if you have saving faith in the Son, the thing you are able to see is what is shown all men in the things that are made.



Now pay attention to this next part>

THIS.......this......this is why the Bible tells us that the people who die in unbelief in the Son do so "without excuse"!
They are without excuse because all you can know of God is given us in the Son.....there is no "other" revelation to learn about God....only in the Son does man learn about the Father.
Jesus is shown us in the things that are made!


This is why it's so silly when someone says> "You have only shown me the Son drawing all men, show me the father drawing all men?"For the answer from the text teaches us ""Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

If the Son is said to be drawing all men to himself, it is ONLY because the Father is drawing all men to Himself.

bump for Billy

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

why dont you quote the verses i have been using?.....then i will tell you if they are true or not.....

You are being evasive Alan. Is what I have written below correct or incorrect?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

bump for Billy

Since you just reposted this again hopefully you can tell me if what I stated is what you real believe. Here it is again for you.

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

LOL...aye! I have to get to Bible study, right now. Later.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are being evasive Alan. Is what I have written below correct or incorrect?

see bump.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you just reposted this again hopefully you can tell me if what I stated is what you real believe. Here it is again for you.

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

what did the verse I quoted teach about what is "clearly seen" in the things that are made?

[alanmolstad]

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them"

in other words...all we can know about God is manifest to men,,,not by accident...but only because God shows this to us all.


But you may ask "How does God show us all there is to know about him?"


and the answer to that question is in the next verse.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see bump.....

Originally Posted by Billyray

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

Come on Alan is what I said what you believe or not. This is not that hard Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Come on Alan is what I said what you believe or not. This is not that hard Alan.

Im limited to believing in only what the verse i quoted says,,,,,

You can read the verse for yourself....if you can, then you know what i believe.



So read the verse i have quoted and if you doubt I believe in it, just ask me if i think its true or not?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

Originally Posted by Libby

LOL...aye! I have to get to Bible study, right now. Later.

"AYE" is right. When you see what tale you have weaved it doesn't make a lot of sense. Does it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You can read the verse for yourself....if you can, then you know what i believe.

The verse never states that you can know about Jesus by looking at the universe. That is why I am trying to get you to tell me if you really believe that looking at the universe teaches everything about Jesus. Now are you ready to tell me if you believe this or not?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"AYE" is right. When you see what tale you have weaved it doesn't make a lot of sense. Does it?

It doesn't make a lot of sense when you try to boil it down into just a few words, because you leave a lot of stuff out.

The Bible definitely says that there is proof of God in his creation. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, we can learn all about "Jesus" just by looking at nature. Nature is proof of God and that "can be" (for some) the beginning stages of the Father drawing us.......is all I'm saying.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It doesn't make a lot of sense when you try to boil it down into just a few words, because you leave a lot of stuff out.

The Bible definitely says that there is proof of God in his creation. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, we can learn all about "Jesus" just by looking at nature. Nature is proof of God and that "can be" (for some) the beginning stages of the Father drawing us.......is all I'm saying.

Sounds like you are back tracking a bit here Libby. If you believe--like Alan believes--that looking at the creation equates to the Father drawing all men to Christ then all of the other verses that I have given you makes no sense because ALL men have already been drawn and can come to Christ at any time. The problem with this belief is that we see many verses that clearly show that men are unable to come to Christ as depicted in John 6.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sounds like you are back tracking a bit here Libby. If you believe--like Alan believes--that looking at the creation equates to the Father drawing all men to Christ then all of the other verses that I have given you makes no sense because ALL men have already been drawn and can come to Christ at any time. The problem with this belief is that we see many verses that clearly show that men are unable to come to Christ as depicted in John 6.

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.

very true!

why this is so hard for some to read and understand is past me....