Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
From my perspective, true believers are justified by faith throughout Scripture, apart from receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit - especially since the Gift of the Holy Spirit was not available until the day of Pentecost.



It appears that you have presented an interpretation of Ephesians that you have not exegeted for me. Please explain your position on that verse.



I believe Scripture teaches that believers are converted apart from receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit.



I understand what you are saying. From my perspective, the majority of Scripture was in a "transitional period." This, therefore, in and of itself, is not a reason to claim that there is not pure agreement, and consistency, between Acts and the Epistles. I think the burder of proof is on those who would use "transition" as a means of discontinuity between the two. My personal perspective is that "transitional period" is used as an excuse for theologians that struggle with the essential unity of Acts and the Epistles. Of course, it could be nothing more that an a priori mindset that refuses to allow for other possibilities. None the less, I think that Acts and the Epistles agree 100 percent in this regard, and when looked at as a composite whole will present a clear picture of post conversion reception of the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

I will confess, this position is rarely taught, and both Oneness Pentecostals, and those who are not, will disagree vehemently against it. From my perspective (which of course could be wrong like anyone elses), the position I hold is the most consistent, though unpopular.



I have read each verse, and believe the way they are presented here, they are out of context, but I am sure we will discuss that some more later. Just as I am sure you will struggle with what I share as well.



I believe that the Romans p***ages is one of the most mis-quoted verses on this topic out there, and I will share about that later.

I see Ephesians 5:18 as a mere metaphor suggesting continual submission the the Holy Spirit that has been given to those who have already received the Gift of the Holy Spirit.



I understand your position fully. It is probably close to the view I held for years. I hope we can dialog with love and respect on this matter.

Respectfully

Adelphos
Adelphos: we might debate concerning whether I am taking scripture out of context or not. I think the essential disagreement is on the basic question about does every believer have the Spirit or not? Concerning your two statements:

"It appears that you have presented an interpretation of Ephesians that you have not exegeted for me. Please explain your position on that verse.

I believe Scripture teaches that believers are converted apart from receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit."

this is the crux of the issue. I think if you read Rom 8:9 carefully, it is not out of context in the way I have presented it. I firmly believe the whole of the scripture teaches that all true believers have the Spirit. The ramifications of any person not having the Spirit are:
1. 1 Cor. 2:12 - anyone not receiving the Spirit cannot have the wisdom to understand and receive the gospel.
2. Rom. 8:9 - anyone not having the Spirit does not belong to Christ.
3. Rom. 8:14 - anyone not having the Spirit cannot be led by Him.
4. Rom. 8:16 - the Spirit cannot testify (***ure) the person without Him.
5. Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit cannot help the weakness of the one without Him.
6. Gal. 5:22 - without the Spirit there can be no fruit of the Spirit.
7. John 3:5 - without the Spirit there is no Spirit-birth, and such a person cannot be in the kingdom of God.
8. 2 Cor. 5:17 - without the Spirit, there cannot be a new creation, and thus no Biblical worldview in which to see the light of Christ.
9. ***us 3:5-6 - without the Spirit, there can be no regeneration (coupled with John 3:5), and subsequently no renewal.
10. Eph. 1:14 - without the Spirit there is no guarantee (earnest) of inheritance in the kingdom.
11. Eph. 2:18 - without the Spirit there is no access to the Father.
12. Eph. 2:22 - without the Spirit there is no dwelling of God.

These are only a few of the scriptures, I could spend hours showing one after another, in which the entire NT is filled with proof that all true believers have the Holy Spirit. Again, you have to take each scripture within its immediate context, as well as the whole of the NT. Anyone can nitpick apart each verse and interpretation into something different, if taken out of context.

Incidentally, Eph. 1:14 states very clearly that the believer (the people Paul is writing to) is given the Holy Spirit by God as the "earnest" of inheritance among the saints, i.e. the guarantee. The promise from God of eternal life is not guaranteed to just anyone, only to those who receive the Spirit. Therefore, no one who has not yet received the Spirit can have any ***urance of salvation. Only those who actually have the Spirit can have any ***urance at all. And conversely, those who have the Spirit have full ***urance, since God's promise is as good as done (Heb. 6:19).

"I see Ephesians 5:18 as a mere metaphor suggesting continual submission the the Holy Spirit that has been given to those who have already received the Gift of the Holy Spirit." - I agree with your concept here, except there is a comparison in this verse between the worldly way and the spiritual way - the statement is not metaphorical.
TD