Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?

I agree with what the Bible only says, guy.....Libby, James, and whomever should too.

[alanmolstad]

the unity of the Trinity is such, that at no point in His life did the Lord jesus ever do or say anything, that was not something he saw the father saying or doing.....

Every step of his life was because he was following the footsteps of the father.....

Jesus did NOTHING on his own.

Jesus could do NOTHING on his own.


So when the Lord says he would raw all men to himself, it is only because the son saw the Father drawning all men to Himself.


And, this also means, .......That if the Son did not see the father drawing all men to himself, then the Son could not draw all men to himself as well....






Thats the truth kids.......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Can you comment on this verse and how it pertains to your views and Alan's views on this topic?

Jesus did not come here to do his own will....

This is why when we read the verse that teaches that Jesus draws "all men:, or "all people" to himself, that this is actually only because the father is drawing :all men" to himself.....


Jesus could not do anything apart from the father.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

this is true...Jesus never did anything apart from the will of the father......

Jesus cleary says, thsat by himself he could do "nothing"


so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!


can I get an "Amen"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes....every person ever born is "able"......

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

But that is not what is says in multiple places in John 6 says Alan. Those in verse 36 did not believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. And we can look at the other verses in John 6 with say that there were those who were unable to come to Him. But you are ignoring those verses.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am sure you realize this but what Alan is doing--and you are egging him on--is trying to twist the scriptures such that when it says that Christ says draw all men--this is really the Father saying it (to try and support his false belief that all men are drawn by the Father to the Son). But this is modalism and I would not be surprised if Alan is a modalist rather than a believer in the Trinity.

a needless personal attack.....Try to stick to the Text billy....
You dont need to muck the topic up with person stuff.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!

First you don't have a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men--in fact John 6 alone refutes this idea. Second if you actually read the entire chapter of John 12 you wouldn't claim that the verse you are quoting is referring to individuals. But you don't want to know about the other verses because it doesn't support your false belief.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.

Im still looking for the list of "other" posters that you think have views that carry so much weight that I dont dare call into question what they teach?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

a needless personal attack.....Try to stick to the Text billy....
You dont need to muck the topic up with person stuff.....

Did you bother reading the surrounding verses for your proof text in John 12?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im still looking for the list of "other" posters that you think have views that carry so much weight that I dont dare call into question what they teach?

Alan you won't listen to reason, nor will you read the scriptures as written. You are making things up as you go along. No other Christian agrees with you on this. Can I ask you a question? Are you a modalist?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

But that is not what is says in multiple places in John 6 says Alan. Those in verse 36 did not believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. And we can look at the other verses in John 6 with say that there were those who were unable to come to Him. But you are ignoring those verses.

Its not just the people that are drawn, or the people that hear....the person actually has to be "taught'

This is like when the local church bell rings on Sunday mormong....it might wake up a lot of people, but some people just roll over and go back to sleep.

So its not the number of people that hear the bell that is inportant to the church in the end...its the number of people that walk in the door.

yet every person that does walk in the door actually do report that "They heard" the bell call them...........




Every person that goes to Heaven was drawn there by god...

Every person that goes to hell has turned away from the light from heaven that was sent to them.....and this light from heaven was not sent to them accidentally!

for it was sent from the "beginning"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan you won't listen to reason, nor will you read the scriptures as written. You are making things up as you go along. No other Christian agrees with you on this. Can I ask you a question? Are you a modalist?

Im a Christian.....

But people do see that Im speaking out against a lot of man-made teachings that have twisted their way under the tent....I support the anti-Mormon...anti-CULT.....and Anti-Calvin....stuff with many of my views.

However Im just a basic christian.....perhaps a bit older than most guests...but still just a normal guy......

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Its not just the people that are drawn, or the people that hear....the person actually has to be "taught'

But you said yourself that anyone who looks at creations knows everything about Jesus. So are you now moving away from that idea now?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im a Christian.....

But people do see that Im speaking out against a lot of man-made teachings that have twisted their way under the tent....I support the anti-Mormon...anti-CULT.....and Anti-Calvin....stuff with many of my views.

However Im just a basic christian.....perhaps a bit older than most guests...but still just a normal guy......

The reason that I ask is because your views seem consistent with what a modalist would believe. So would you cl***ify yourself as a modalist?

[alanmolstad]

Libby, or whomever...

to check out my views, just go GOOGE the topic...
"Does God draw all men?"........trust me, you are going to see that "Alan's not so alone after all".....LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The reason that I ask is because your views seem consistent with what a modalist would believe. So would you cl***ify yourself as a modalist?

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?

I remember James's wife also tried to pin my good name with some ***le or another.......
Where is she again?........

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I remember James's wife also tried to pin my good name with some ***le or another.......
Where is she again?........

Do you blame her? Why waste time with someone who doesn't listen and is unreasonable--especially when they have gone through things over and over again?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

already answered.....some post in the 800s if i remember...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you blame her? Why waste time with someone who doesn't listen and is unreasonable--especially when they have gone through things over and over again?

Im sure she would be here......if she could......

(notice i use the word "could", not the "would" that Christ talked about. He was talking about interest, Im talking about ability)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you said yourself that anyone who looks at creations knows everything about Jesus. So are you now moving away from that idea now?

You really dont need anyone to talk to it seems?

You just pull stuff out of thin air and say that this is what other's believe dont you?....

Why should I bother to answer any questions from you if you are just going to invent your own stuff for me to believe?.......

[alanmolstad]

http://www.intouch.org/magazine/cont...4#.U4vsvSgw9co





the first hit on Google by the way......

[alanmolstad]

You keep telling me that my views are unknown within the church.....well......take a moment and do a GOOGLE search for "Does God draw all men?"


Guess what?, my views are not just my own........LOL



Yes, my views are "unknown" in the little world of the Calvinist church...but it does seem also clear now that when you do a real search of the topic you find that Alan's views are very common within the greater christian body.......

[Libby]

Yes, I'm fairly sure Arminian views (or some blend of the two, like with Walter Martin) are much more common than straight TULIP believers.


My-my, you two have been busy...where to start?